China shows WHO is boss?

[Mega]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...jgdZYqJw&pos=9

I think history will look back at this meeting, quite apart from the attempt by the West to cripple the 3rd World & tire it up in the bondage of "Green Debt" (Quite handy, the West has no money, but lots of Fiat Carbon credits) They will see THIS as the moment where China TOOK charge!

Mike

[don]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...jgdZYqJw&pos=9

I think history will look back at this meeting, quite apart from the attempt by the West to cripple the 3rd World & tire it up in the bondage of "Green Debt" (Quite handy, the West has no money, but lots of Fiat Carbon credits) They will see THIS as the moment where China TOOK charge!

Mike

Opium War #3
You will play the Carbon Cap Game...and like it :p

[Mega]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

They WON'T play Don!

& that will be the start of the downfall.
Mike

[bill]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

They WON'T play Don!

& that will be the start of the downfall.
Mike

HA HA HA
they will play
http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/12...l?pagewanted=2

December 15, 2009
Whether China will open its emissions books to international inspection is becoming one of the biggest fights in the international climate talks here this week.
So far, Chinese leaders have maintained a hard line, claiming that a 2007 decision that nations -- including the United States under the Bush administration -- signed in Bali, Indonesia, does not require developed countries to submit to international verification.
Moreover, negotiators maintain, they are voluntarily imposing sweeping new transparency rules that they insist the world should trust. At the same time, Congress likely won't pass legislation curbing emissions in the United States until it is convinced that China is acting aggressively, as well, to cut carbon -- and that it can trust the data.
Barbara Finamore, China program director for the Natural Resources Defense Council, said she believes programs like the EPA inventory will help create actual confidence in China's numbers. She also praised the idea of a U.S.-China point person.
"China needs that. They need to have somebody they can deal with on these things to move programs forward," she said. "You really do need someone who knows China to focus on it."
Wirth and William Chandler, an expert on energy and Climate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace think tank who also has been lobbying for a China point person, said a high-level appointee is critical to help coordinate work between various U.S. agencies. Meanwhile, Wirth, who served a combined 22 years in the House and Senate, said members of Congress also need to start hearing more often from the White House if the administration hopes to make the case that America's work with China is paying off.

[GRG55]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...jgdZYqJw&pos=9

I think history will look back at this meeting, quite apart from the attempt by the West to cripple the 3rd World & tire it up in the bondage of "Green Debt" (Quite handy, the West has no money, but lots of Fiat Carbon credits) They will see THIS as the moment where China TOOK charge!

Mike

They WON'T play Don!

& that will be the start of the downfall.
Mike

You are in f''ing dreamland Mega. The Chinese have dealt themselves a truly bad hand this time...not a face card in it.

Their economy is toast without customers. The USA and the EU are going to raise needed revenues by taxing carbon emitters in their own economies. There is widespread and growing support among the public for the politicians to "do something" about global warming [what I call the climate change mania phase] so it's the politically easiest tax to slap on.

They WILL level the playing field by applying taxes and tariffs to imports from carbon emitting countries. What could be better than taxing your own carbon polluters? Taxing someone elses. This will be the back-door method to deal with China's stubborn refusal to allow the yuan to appreciate.

The game is up for China...finally. It either starts to voluntarily deal with the outrageous surpluses that it continues to pile up because of the gross manipulation of its currency exchange, or it finally gets whacked by a coordinated response from the nations that have to run current account deficits because of the Chinese. If it results in a dislocation event for China, as opposed to a gradual rebalancing of the current accounts, then EJ's disaster scenario starts to play out imo.

The Chinese KNOW they have no good cards to play...that's why they are squawking so much. Old Chinese proverb: Duck that make most noise become Peking Duck first.

[ricket]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

Their economy is toast without customers.

China has plenty of customers. 1.4 billion of them living within their own borders. People wont save forever, at some point in time when they become comfortable enough with how much they have and they see all these nice luxuries around them that keep getting cheaper due to oversupply...they will start spending. And China's economy will do just fine without having to loan the US money anymore.

[GRG55]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

China has plenty of customers. 1.4 billion of them living within their own borders. People wont save forever, at some point in time when they become comfortable enough with how much they have and they see all these nice luxuries around them that keep getting cheaper due to oversupply...they will start spending. And China's economy will do just fine without having to loan the US money anymore.

If it was that simple for them, they wouldn't be making such a fuss over trade tariffs now would they...:p

[raja]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

China has plenty of customers. 1.4 billion of them living within their own borders. People wont save forever, at some point in time when they become comfortable enough with how much they have and they see all these nice luxuries around them that keep getting cheaper due to oversupply...they will start spending. And China's economy will do just fine without having to loan the US money anymore.

Won't China always need foreign customers?

To produce food, shelter and goods for people to live requires energy and raw materials, and I don't think China is self-sufficient in these. They will have to trade with other countries to acquire them.

So, the question in my mind is whether China can find enough other foreign customers to replace US customers, if trade with the US is greatly diminished. I don't think so . . . .

[iyamwutiam]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

Yes-apparently the 3 billion people of theirs, India,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Indonesia,etc are just not enough consumers. What will they do will all these consumer goods surrounded by a paucity of consmers.

Surely they will be forced to 'sell' them to the US monoliths such as Walmart etc for a pittance. I am surprised that the Walmart did not receive the Nobel Prize in economics like Obama received the Noble Peace Prize.

I sincerely hope that Cina leads the way for all these under-developed export based countries to realize that with out exporting tangible items for Treasury Bills yeilding nominal interest of 1% -they are doomed.

I am sure soon the Gulf, Russia will fall in line with Asia, South America and Africa in pleading with the European nations to take these goods. After all we know that all these burgeoning masses have no need for the producs they export to the US and Euro land.

I am so glad -they have finally come to their senses. Pretty soon I am sure they shall export 'brides' and 'orphans' as the eastern european countries did not too long ago. Because we all know what a spectacular succes Eastern Europe has become by following this admirable route of fiscal discipline and unbridled capitalism.

I am going long Ukranian brides and Greek men.

[bill]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

You are in f''ing dreamland Mega. The Chinese have dealt themselves a truly bad hand this time...not a face card in it.

Their economy is toast without customers. The USA and the EU are going to raise needed revenues by taxing carbon emitters in their own economies. There is widespread and growing support among the public for the politicians to "do something" about global warming [what I call the climate change mania phase] so it's the politically easiest tax to slap on.

They WILL level the playing field by applying taxes and tariffs to imports from carbon emitting countries. What could be better than taxing your own carbon polluters? Taxing someone elses. This will be the back-door method to deal with China's stubborn refusal to allow the yuan to appreciate.

The game is up for China...finally. It either starts to voluntarily deal with the outrageous surpluses that it continues to pile up because of the gross manipulation of its currency exchange, or it finally gets whacked by a coordinated response from the nations that have to run current account deficits because of the Chinese. If it results in a dislocation event for China, as opposed to a gradual rebalancing of the current accounts, then EJ's disaster scenario starts to play out imo.

The Chinese KNOW they have no good cards to play...that's why they are squawking so much. Old Chinese proverb: Duck that make most noise become Peking Duck first.

We just keep pumping all the oil to China they want (As well as exported all our carbon producing industries to china) and they love it. WOW, that’s what I call future carbon revenue guaranteed.
Or shall we call it “Carbon Roasted Peking Duck”.

[touchring]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

HA HA HA
they will play
http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/12...l?pagewanted=2

some pics here - http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/

[Southernguy]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

An industrializing, creditor nation vs. an deindustrializing heavily indebted nation.
And the second needs to permanently sell huge amounts of debt so as to be able to buy its energy from wealth third parties.
Where are the strong parties here?
The first of nameda nations is China, who by the way is the main creditor to the second.
The second, USA is a very powerful military power stuck in two unwinnable wars.
Power equilibrium seems to be shifting fast. Because an all out war is not possible, it would destroy everyone on earth.
If USA impose segnificant trade tariffs on China, these shall not have dollars to buy treasuries. Furthermore, for quite some time prices shall go up in USA, no cheap goodies at Wal Mart. Problems for the Chinese? Certainly, buy I think, in nowadays state of affairs much bigger problems for USA.

[touchring]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

An industrializing, creditor nation vs. an deindustrializing heavily indebted nation.
And the second needs to permanently sell huge amounts of debt so as to be able to buy its energy from wealth third parties.
Where are the strong parties here?
The first of nameda nations is China, who by the way is the main creditor to the second.
The second, USA is a very powerful military power stuck in two unwinnable wars.
Power equilibrium seems to be shifting fast. Because an all out war is not possible, it would destroy everyone on earth.
If USA impose segnificant trade tariffs on China, these shall not have dollars to buy treasuries. Furthermore, for quite some time prices shall go up in USA, no cheap goodies at Wal Mart. Problems for the Chinese? Certainly, buy I think, in nowadays state of affairs much bigger problems for USA.

These are only arguments drummed into us by Wall Street. Status quo will reap immense profit for likes of Walmart and NY banks. This the real reason why nothing shall change.

The fact is China is vulnerable. With the need to create 10-20 million jobs a year just to prevent social unrest the type you've seen in North Korea, China needs the world more than the world needs China.

Social unrest can be terrifying to any government, even North Korea, which executes its people for offenses right on the spot, has to give leeway.
http://thejakartaglobe.com/business/...cutions/347649

[iyamwutiam]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

These are only arguments drummed into us by Wall Street. Status quo will reap immense profit for likes of Walmart and NY banks. This the real reason why nothing shall change.

The fact is China is vulnerable. With the need to create 10-20 million jobs a year just to prevent social unrest the type you've seen in North Korea, China needs the world more than the world needs China.

Social unrest can be terrifying to any government, even North Korea, which executes its people for offenses right on the spot, has to give leeway.
http://thejakartaglobe.com/business/...cutions/347649

I will discomfitted by such a leap in your analogy. A small country that has for years endured tremendous sanctions by a consortium of western nations that has to suffer the indignity of its ships/planes etc being bordered by a self-appointed global police can not be compared to China.

Please go to China and see the leas and bounds made i that country from just 40 years ago -the leap is as great as the one America made from the 1880 to the 1950s.

Jobs will not be a major issue -because after all -like the US they can with a wave of the hand -create millions of jobs in 'national security', police and the military should they wish.

I think the problem will be when China will start using these the Treasury bills as currency to buy resources. But thanks to impregnable double standards of westernized nations -they will not be able to buy GM for a measley 60B or Lehmann Brothers for a measly 100B or Rio Tinot for a measley 30B. Debt-ridden western powers are not stupid enough to let the game they have played upon Argentina, Bolivia, etc be played upon them. They may be broke and churning out debt faster than ever-but they know better than to sell their utilities and infra-structure (Dubai Ports) to credit holders unless they are part of the established colonial consortium consisting of France/Germany/UK/Australia/ et cand as usual the exception to EVERY rule Israel.

[touchring]

Re: China shows WHO is boss?

I think the problem will be when China will start using these the Treasury bills as currency to buy resources. But thanks to impregnable double standards of westernized nations -they will not be able to buy GM for a measley 60B or Lehmann Brothers for a measly 100B or Rio Tinot for a measley 30B. Debt-ridden western powers are not stupid enough to let the game they have played upon Argentina, Bolivia, etc be played upon them. They may be broke and churning out debt faster than ever-but they know better than to sell their utilities and infra-structure (Dubai Ports) to credit holders unless they are part of the established colonial consortium consisting of France/Germany/UK/Australia/ et cand as usual the exception to EVERY rule Israel.

I think you might have associated Shanghai or Beijing with entire China, but the China today is definitely not 1950s USA. China in 1949 is poorer than the USA at any point in history, probably even worst than North Korea today.

And the USA definitely did have not such things happening in 1950s, definitely not after slavery was banned. Note the article is new, 2009 June.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/korean-women-treated-like-livestock/story-e6frg6so-1225705330508
http://www.crosswalk.com/11603283/