Storing Gold

[Digidiver]

Ok, I have two questions and am hoping to get some advice from members.

• I’ve been purchasing gold for a while now. Smallest size is 10oz bars. Originally I planned to take these with me on flights out of the country and store them but am not sure how bullion is looked upon at the border ( Do I just take my chances and not say anything?).
• Currently I am storing in a couple of Safety Deposit Boxes (different banks) but am nervous about these as well after reading a few incidents with BofA going into them and not notifying the owner. Additionally what happens to a box if there is an issue with the bank itself? How safe are they?

What are other memebers doing?
I sold my house in 2006 and have been renting since but now am sometimes wishing I had a house to dig a deep pit in and bury it in.
Thanks in advance.
fficeffice" />

[pwcmba]

Re: Storing Gold

Ok, I have two questions and am hoping to get some advice from members.

• I’ve been purchasing gold for a while now. Smallest size is 10oz bars. Originally I planned to take these with me on flights out of the country and store them but am not sure how bullion is looked upon at the border ( Do I just take my chances and not say anything?).
• Currently I am storing in a couple of Safety Deposit Boxes (different banks) but am nervous about these as well after reading a few incidents with BofA going into them and not notifying the owner. Additionally what happens to a box if there is an issue with the bank itself? How safe are they?

What are other memebers doing?
I sold my house in 2006 and have been renting since but now am sometimes wishing I had a house to dig a deep pit in and bury it in.
Thanks in advance.
fficeffice" />

Information on point two below:

"When can I have access to my safe deposit box?
When the failed bank's deposits are assumed by a healthy bank, the branch offices usually reopen the next business day. At that time, you will have access to your safe deposit boxes. In the event of a depositor payoff, the FDIC will send a letter to you informing you of the closing. The letter will instruct you on how you can remove the contents of your box. Access to the safe deposit boxes is typically granted to the safe deposit holders the next business day after the closure."

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/bankin...s/payment.html

[pianodoctor]

Re: Storing Gold

People using safe deposit boxes ought to consider this (story + video): http://i.abcnews.com/GMA/Story?id=4832471&page=1

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

My impression was- if he had just not mentioned the coins, no one would have cared. But he made a point of declaring them.

Who knows how they might have reacted to gold bars?

And it was also clear that there was a very low level of awareness right now as regards border officials and bullion. Of course that could change quickly if the gov't becomes concerned about it.

[jpatter666]

Re: Storing Gold

Digidiver,
As an aside, why gold bars that you personally hold? I thought about buying bars, but then decided on coins (for my physical gold) because it's easier to validate a coin than a bar (strangely enough I read an article today about suspicions that various asian gold bars were being mixed with tungsten which is very close to the specific weight of gold). I recall reading in Cryptonomnicon (great book BTW) an small passage on just what a pain it would be to validate a bar of gold.
My gold "bars" such as they are with GoldMoney and GTU.
Just wondering what you saw that I very obviously did not.

[Digidiver]

Re: Storing Gold

jpatter666,
As to why gold bars, I only did it due to the amount I was trying to accumulate and heard from others that apmex was a trustworthy dealer. Most of what I have are 10oz Pamp Suisse with assay card. Maybe it gives me a false sense of security but it's too late now. I never had gold before coming to iTulip and getting scared about my life's savings.

[Digidiver]

Re: Storing Gold

I saw that article and that is what got me wondering. Is it worth a the risk of losing 10k to test this? I may just end up flipping a coin on my next trip.

[swgprop]

Re: Storing Gold

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

It does seem the rules are unclear with respect to transporting gold across the border. Reviewing the US Customs web site results in general confusion (at least on my part). For instance with respect to "Gold coins, medals, and bullion" they state

There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion, however, if the value of the gold coins is over $10,000, it must be declared to a CBP officer and must be reported on the FinCEN 105 form.

But under the heading "What constitutes "Negotiable Monetary Instruments" for currency reporting requirements?" They make the following two statements:

Negotiable monetary instruments that must be reported by travelers (include) Coin or currency from the U.S. and/or other countries, including gold coins;

Gold Bullion is not a monetary instrument for purposes of this requirement. You can obtain the currency reporting form FinCEN 105 for more information.

In reviewing the FinCEN form, there is no mention of gold or bullion, and Currency is defined as "The coin and paper money of the United States or any other country that is (1) designated as legal tender and that (2) circulates and (3) is customarily accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance."

So where does that leave us?

I would think to play it safe it would be prudent to declare the value of the gold. If you are transporting $100K in cash, there is no law against it but if you fail to declare it and they find it they will seize it. Why tempt fate with bullion?

Just for the heck of it I submitted a question via their web site requesting clarification.

[art]

Re: Storing Gold

The most interesting gold storage technique I heard of was from an old MIT prof of mine. He said one of the other profs used to store his gold in a metal cup INSIDE his furnace - in liquid form!

He figured no burglar was going to look inside the furnace; and if they did, they weren't going to grab the molten gold.

[pianodoctor]

Re: Storing Gold

Our gov't says U.S. gold coins, minted by our own mint, are "collectibles". I don't see how they can turn around and call them negotiable monetary instruments. Until they decide to do so, of course.

I have sometimes wished I had better access to so-called gold monetary jewelry, as they do in some countries. I don't think anyone at the border will give you crap over jewelry. Walk through with a $million diamond, a $50K watch, I don't think they care.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: Storing Gold

I gather you are Female. For complete safety thru all Borders, get to a Jeweler and have a 10 oz bar glued to a cheap 14 k neck chain.Wear the end "pendant" it just out of sight. If questioned tell them it is a fake novelty - Coins, small gold (half ounce) can be placed on cheap charm bracelet. Larger coins on neck chains. Woman wear jewelry and it is never questioned. Watching subcontinent Indians board flights always leaves me wondering if there is any real gold in vaults because they carry pounds of the stuff around the arms, legs and neck.
They can even be purchased
http://store.nwtmint.com/images/products/2174__orig.jpg

[karim0028]

Re: Storing Gold

Our gov't says U.S. gold coins, minted by our own mint, are "collectibles". I don't see how they can turn around and call them negotiable monetary instruments. Until they decide to do so, of course.

I have sometimes wished I had better access to so-called gold monetary jewelry, as they do in some countries. I don't think anyone at the border will give you crap over jewelry. Walk through with a $million diamond, a $50K watch, I don't think they care.

I dont know much about diamonds but i dont think they hold their value worth squat, you may buy it for 1 Million but when you come to sell it how much will it really sell for? 500K....

[pianodoctor]

Re: Storing Gold

I suppose it depends on whether you are a sharp wholesale buyer who paid correctly for it or a typical retail buyer. The wholesale buyer may buy a diamond for $1million, fancy it up in a jewelry setting and sell it for $5 million. Or sell it to another wholesaler for $1million+ a small profit.

Point is, put it in a piece of jewelry and you can walk it through border check, correct? Just a well-to-do tourist on holiday.

I knew a guy who used to put gold coins into jewelry settings all the time.

Thunderdownunder made the Indian reference. That was my reference point, too. My understanding is, due to cheap skilled goldsmithing labor available, they can get very high gold-content jewelry made at not a lot of premium over bullion value. So they use that gold as a store of value, as we do gold coins. Some of these pieces are pretty hefty.

[pianodoctor]

Re: Storing Gold

For those unfamiliar with the concept here's an example of what I consider to be monetary gold jewelry: http://www.malanijewelers.com/sku47-01460-2.aspx

Note thunderdownunder, this is a MAN's piece ;-)

So, 45.3 grams of 22 Karat for $1765. $38.96/gram

Anyone know what a pawn shop would give you for that?

According to this site http://www.silverrecyclers.com/Calcu...alculator.aspx the melt value today of the jewelry piece above is $1416.40

I'm not sure if a pawn shop gives you full melt value or what.

I'm wondering also what differences, if any, there are in "reporting rules" of a jeweler selling you gold jewelry, pawnshops buying it from you, (say $20,000 worth) versus a coin shop buying/sellling $20K worth of bullion.

[jimmygu3]

Re: Storing Gold

People using safe deposit boxes ought to consider this (story + video): http://i.abcnews.com/GMA/Story?id=4832471&page=1

Crossing borders: I just read a story (was it on iTulip??) about a guy who crossed the border with gold coins, which he declared, and found that the government people simply didn't know what to do. Basically they never encountered the situation before. He got various responses from various officials, some paying it no mind at all while others came up with 'they are collectibles and you must be crossing the border in order to sell them at a profit, therefore you will be taxed.' Ultimately, he got across with it free and clear though.

My impression was- if he had just not mentioned the coins, no one would have cared. But he made a point of declaring them.

Who knows how they might have reacted to gold bars?

And it was also clear that there was a very low level of awareness right now as regards border officials and bullion. Of course that could change quickly if the gov't becomes concerned about it.

I say American Eagles would be the easiest thing to carry without questions being asked. You could easily carry 10 of them ($11k worth) in your purse or carry-on bag instead of a 10 oz. bar. If any questions were asked, the face value is stamped right on the back: US$50 each. You could honestly declare it as $500 in US currency, which it is.

Jimmy

[rabot10]

Re: Storing Gold

jpatter666,
As to why gold bars, I only did it due to the amount I was trying to accumulate and heard from others that apmex was a trustworthy dealer. Most of what I have are 10oz Pamp Suisse with assay card. Maybe it gives me a false sense of security but it's too late now. I never had gold before coming to iTulip and getting scared about my life's savings.

goldmoney.com ;-)