Is Obama our Gorbachev?

[don]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Gorbachev?

No.

Raymond Shaw

Everyone loved Raymond....

[c1ue]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

I don't think Gorby is the right analogy. Yes, there are some parallels such as the new generation trying to right a failing model but the BIG difference is that Gorbachev was a hapless sad sack sort of like Carter who let himself get overwhelmed by events and when faced with a more forceful opponent (Reagan), let the system collapse.

This is incorrect. Gorbachev was visionary in seeing that the Soviet system would have to change. His mistake was trusting both that the West would meet his efforts halfway and that the West knew anything better - economically or otherwise.

Obama is no Gorbachev or Carter. He may be going down the wrong path but he is in no way letting events control his destiny. He is highly adept politically and more than willing to ignore dissent and crack heads when necessary to get his way.

Really? I agree Obama isn't as hapless as Carter, but then again what exactly has Obama accomplished with his historic charter as well as his party controlling Congress?

By any stretch of imagination, it has not been impressive thus far.

Perhaps a better historical analogy would be a Napoleon. Very driven with a stunning amount of short term successes but headed to disaster due to hubris.

Napoleon wasn't backed by the FIRE oligarchs.

Napoleon wasn't a 'compromise'r.

Napoleon was a brilliant general.

Sorry, I don't see any resemblence whatsoever.

[don]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

what exactly has Obama accomplished with his historic charter as well as his party controlling Congress?

By any stretch of imagination, it has not been impressive thus far.

The largest transfer of wealth in our history.

Not impressive?

Obama magic

[grapejelly]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

...Bushama?

[Finster]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

... Regardless, fascism is at this point an epithet and has no meaning.

It does get tossed around pretty casually. Probably 1 in 1000 people would recognize it when they saw it ... or recognize that the US is already, in many ways, firmly in its grip.

[Finster]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

somewhere recently i read a quote of upton sinclair, that when fascism comes to america it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.

It's wrapped in whatever it is that says that all will be ruled from Washington, DC. You in Duluth, Minnesota, Butte Montana, Toledo Ohio, or in Rural USA, you will do things as we say you will. We will tell you who you may hire, who you may work for, what you may pay or be paid, what you may eat, what kind of vehicle you may drive, what your schools will teach, and what you may display in your town square. And you will send us lots of money for the privilege.

[jpatter666]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

It does get tossed around pretty casually. Probably 1 in 1000 people would recognize it when they saw it ... or recognize that the US is already, in many ways, firmly in its grip.

Snort....name a time in the last 150 years when you could *not* say that about the US.

[Finster]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Snort....name a time in the last 150 years when you could *not* say that about the US.

Excellent choice of time frames. It was right around 1860 when things started to go wrong...

[Raz]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

And THAT's the kind of nonsense that put you on my ignore list. Dude are you trolling or are you serious?

Insert the word "Western" right before "civilization" in Serge's post and you will find me in total agreement with him.
If you choose to ignore the history of the Western World for the past 1700 years then add me to your ignore list as well.

[*T*]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

I'm not being politically correct, it's a point of fact. Mussolini, Hitler & Franco all were strongly associated with the church in their country; perhaps our perspectives are different.

[*T*]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Insert the word "Western" right before "civilization" in Serge's post and you will find me in total agreement with him.
If you choose to ignore the history of the Western World for the past 1700 years then add me to your ignore list as well.

A word that would also totally change the meaning of the sentence... nonetheless I will do as you suggest.

[jpatter666]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Excellent choice of time frames. It was right around 1860 when things started to go wrong...

Yep, and I had *exactly* that time frame in mind. After all, one of the reasons they called it "The War Between the States" was over who had the ultimate power -- the individual states or the central government.

In the end, even the Northern States got way more than they bargained for....things were never the same afterword.

[Raz]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

I'm not being politically correct, it's a point of fact. Mussolini, Hitler & Franco all were strongly associated with the church in their country; perhaps our perspectives are different.

What does "associated" mean? Mussolini told his daughter that he didn't care if she was a lawyer or a prostitute - as long as she didn't become a Christian. Benito Mussolini HATED Christianity and Christians. That is a point of fact.

Hitler used the Lutheran church and spoke often to his inner circle of his contempt for them. He was baptized a Roman Catholic and made use of his sparce attendance through photographic propaganda. In the late 1930s he told Goering that when the time was right they would deal with the Christian churches "with long knives". That's a reference to his mass murder of Rohm and the Brownshirts.

The Nazis infiltrated the Lutheran church hierarchy in the early 1930s and under Ludwig Muller the movement, known as Deutsche Christen came to power in the state church. These "christians" were anti-semitic supporters of Nazi party candidates and this led to the formation of the Confessing church which included clergymen such as Martin Niemoller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who was hanged by the Nazis).

Perhaps you should read some real history - and excellent place to begin would be Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives by Alan Bullock. Bullock was a British socialist who researched Adolf Hitler's life to a greater extent than anyone during the 20th Century. Ditto for his work on Stalin.

Should you place me on your ignore list the loss will be yours.

[don]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Before a sold-out crowd of upstanding New Yorkers, including some of the most committed bankers in the world of finance – Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman Sachs and James Dimon of JP Morgan Chase among them – President Obama asked the audience of 700 to accept his latest obfuscation, financial reform, “not only because it in the interests of your industry, but because it is in the interests of our country." Obama offered that “there is no dividing line between Main Street and Wall Street. We rise or we fall together as one nation." To grasp this understanding, he explained, would return America to its rightful place as “the envy of the world.”

And nobody’s going to jail. Far from it. Little more than 50 blocks north of Cooper Union, where President Obama spoke of “one nation,” is located Blankfein’s Manhattan residence. The condo tower containing the Blankfein city pad, 15 Central Park West, was completed in 2005 and sold out for a total of $2 billion, making it the most lucrative condo sale in the history of the planet. Now we’re talking “envy of the world”.

Designed by Yale’s Robert A.M. Stern and drawing upon the architecture of Roaring 20s Park Avenue elegance, the facade contains 85,000 slabs of limestone, behind which wine cellars, swimming pool and chauffeur waiting rooms can be found on lower levels. Sandy Weill of Citigroup bought his penthouse there for $45 million. One of the tower residences brought $80 million. Baseball great A Rod is renting a lesser unit for $30,000 a month.

At the building’s entrance a doorman awaited weary Blankfein, back from a yet another grueling day of defending derivatives, promoting risk management and generally feeling misunderstood. This doorman is not alone, as there are other entrances to the large complex, where other doormen attend the residents’ many needs. It is a 24/7 job and there is no room for error, as threats to security are real. Add to these doormen other building workers who keep hallways clean and staff elevators at the highest standards of service.

These building workers, all members of Local 32BJ, Service Employees International Union, narrowly averted a strike this week when owners of the city’s residential buildings, like Blankfein’s place, settled on a new contract. Under the terms of the new deal, building workers had to give back some health care benefits, saving owners $70 million, in exchange for which they received a 10 per cent raise over four years. They make on average $35,000 a year, before taxes.

The envy of the world.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ginsburg04232010.html

[we_are_toast]

Re: Is Obama our Gorbachev?

Excellent choice of time frames. It was right around 1860 when things started to go wrong...

Yep, and I had *exactly* that time frame in mind. After all, one of the reasons they called it "The War Between the States" was over who had the ultimate power -- the individual states or the central government.

In the end, even the Northern States got way more than they bargained for....things were never the same afterword.

You guys really don't want to go down this path!