R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

[Jim Nickerson]

I participated in the great American Fraud of voting as a "good citizen should" until after Bush 2 was re-elected. I guess today I take some comfort in having voted for George Wallace whenever it was (I'm from Alabama originally, but I actually loathed George Wallace), and for having voted for Perot. I have no idea as to what might have been my actual thinking in those two elections, but it was probably some sense that the system of two parties left too much to be desired as far as a system that was oriented toward consideration of all the people of this country.

Nearing 68 y/o, with no children, my current attitude is I could give a shit about the future of America--it deserves what it has wrought for itself, and nothng I personally think will change anything.

Were I younger, which I think most readers here are, I hope I would be incensed at the current system; however, when I was younger I was too engaged in work to pay other than passing attention to politics and that was probably a mistake.

Poliiticians in the US in the current system are not going to change things to any serious degree such that the focus is for consideration of ALL the citizens vs. 50.0001% during elections, and probably less than 1-2% after elected.

Karl Denninger, possibly a kook, possibly not, recently suggested that people should stop buying anything except necessities: "We go on a consumption strike until and unless our demands are met." http://market-ticker.org/archives/2009/06.html in order to force the "SEC, FBI and Congress" to act with regard to "market manipulation and goverment-sponsored games." Personally, I think it will take armed revolution to change things though I am not advocating that. If you people who vote want change the system is going to have to be changed, and perhaps Denninger's suggestion approaches something that could realistically effect a real change.

Here's Nader's piece on Perot. I thought it interesting.

http://nader.org/index.php?/archives...redictors.html

[Jim Nickerson]

More good government responsibility.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

The staffer below as Walker-Lightfoot.

Staffer at SEC Had Warned Of Madoff

Lawyer Raised Alarm, Then Was Pointed Elsewhere 7/2/09

• Walker-Lightfoot's supervisors on the case were Mark Donohue, then a branch chief in her department, and his boss, Eric Swanson, an assistant director of the department, said two people familiar with the investigation. Swanson later married Madoff's niece, and their relationship is now under review by the agency's inspector general, who is examining the SEC's handling of the Madoff case.

[Jim Nickerson]

Control of the Press by Current White House

Helen Thomas Blasts White House Control Of Press

• “That’s not his point,” interrupted Helen Thomas, correspondent for Hearst Newspapers. “That’s, that’s not his point. His point is the control from here. We have never had that in the White House. I’m amazed at you people who call for openness and transparency and control.
• “You have left open the suggestion that you are pumping the answers,” Thomas continued. “It’s shocking. It’s really shocking.”
• “Let’s have this discussion at the conclusion of the town hall meeting,” Gibbs said.
• “No, no, no. We are having it now.” claimed Thomas. “It’s a pattern. It’s a pattern. It isn’t the question. It’s a pattern of controlling the press.”

[c1ue]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Jim,

Haven't seen that much of you recently - hope all is going well for you.

I echo your disgust with what is going on. As one of the younger generation, unfortunately my conclusion is that the safer path is greener pastures abroad.

It isn't that the situation is irrecoverable, it is that my long held thesis of the bastards in charge not giving up their power nor the sheeple not seizing said initiative back - is still holding true.

It isn't going to end pretty though I am still faintly hopeful. But as one who likes to be prepared for the worst I am ready.

[cjppjc]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Great post Jim. I echo what c1ue said. Although my age is a little more than his.

[vanvaley1]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Jim,

Haven't seen that much of you recently - hope all is going well for you.

I echo your disgust with what is going on. As one of the younger generation, unfortunately my conclusion is that the safer path is greener pastures abroad.

It isn't that the situation is irrecoverable, it is that my long held thesis of the bastards in charge not giving up their power nor the sheeple not seizing said initiative back - is still holding true.

It isn't going to end pretty though I am still faintly hopeful. But as one who likes to be prepared for the worst I am ready.

So the nearing of the end will be when we see the bastards in charge willing to give up power because they have no answers and/or they want out of town as fast as possible because their 'solutions' to the problems didn't work?

What's our clue to when they have given up the ghost? Do we see a mass migration of private jets and yachts leaving the country and scurrying to such and such a place? I believe EJ has mentioned that a number of folks have set up their accounts so that they can move them quickly overseas. Too bad there is not monitoring device of these accounts like insiders selling stock in large amounts to alert the general public...though that might be self-defeating. Or is that a clue in itself?

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

So the nearing of the end will be when we see the bastards in charge willing to give up power because they have no answers and/or they want out of town as fast as possible because their 'solutions' to the problems didn't work?

What's our clue to when they have given up the ghost? Do we see a mass migration of private jets and yachts leaving the country and scurrying to such and such a place? I believe EJ has mentioned that a number of folks have set up their accounts so that they can move them quickly overseas. Too bad there is not monitoring device of these accounts like insiders selling stock in large amounts to alert the general public...though that might be self-defeating. Or is that a clue in itself?

I believe you have your cart waaaaay in front of your horse.

First, it is a question whether anyone that has the power our elected and appointed officials have is going to give up anything. It is fanciful right now to think they might ever.

Ask yourself, and I ask anyone, what is actually going to make, entice, force the government to make its responsibility to the sheeple vs. the monied-interests of this country?

My estimate is that any serious change in the way this country is run is several generations, at least, away and that is just my WAG.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Martin Luther King did, I believe, play a major part in bringing about change for the blacks in the US, and he did that peacefully, though the reaction of government to his efforts were not always peaceful. And if one looks, as some of you who are much keener than I on actual timing of events in US history are capable, at the time it took from whatever was the initial suppression of blacks by the slave traders on the shores of this continent until they achieved anything resembling equality, it was a loooong time.

I was just reading about Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma and her tribulations against the military suppression there. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1950505.stm

From that BBC piece:

• For the Burmese people, Ms Suu Kyi, 64, represents their best and perhaps sole hope that one day there will be an end to the country's military repression.

When one looks at all Ms. Suu Kyi hasn't accomplished, in 21 years, one cannot get too enthusiastic about change being just over the horizon in the US.

We don't even have an Aung San Suu Kyi, at least not to my awareness.

[c1ue]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

So the nearing of the end will be when we see the bastards in charge willing to give up power because they have no answers and/or they want out of town as fast as possible because their 'solutions' to the problems didn't work?

What's our clue to when they have given up the ghost? Do we see a mass migration of private jets and yachts leaving the country and scurrying to such and such a place? I believe EJ has mentioned that a number of folks have set up their accounts so that they can move them quickly overseas. Too bad there is not monitoring device of these accounts like insiders selling stock in large amounts to alert the general public...though that might be self-defeating. Or is that a clue in itself?

I do not believe they will give up power - if for no other reason than to escape prosecution.

When you're in power there are numerous ways to get and retain immunity; once you're out all bets are off. The scale of economic crimes is so great that they must keep power for the rest of their (and their family's) lives.

Once again I point out: why is stealing a $5000 car 3 times ($15000) mean 20 years in jail, while stealing $5000000000 or throwing away $12000000000000 barely even a crime?

As for MLK: his efforts were in a period of still high prosperity in the US. Had the 1964 law not been passed - as well as due to a grandstanding Kennedy - it is quite uncertain if the 1970s would have seen the same change still occur.

[raja]

Re: Control of the Press by Current White House

Helen Thomas Blasts White House Control Of Press

• “That’s not his point,” interrupted Helen Thomas, correspondent for Hearst Newspapers. “That’s, that’s not his point. His point is the control from here. We have never had that in the White House. I’m amazed at you people who call for openness and transparency and control.
• “You have left open the suggestion that you are pumping the answers,” Thomas continued. “It’s shocking. It’s really shocking.”
• “Let’s have this discussion at the conclusion of the town hall meeting,” Gibbs said.
• “No, no, no. We are having it now.” claimed Thomas. “It’s a pattern. It’s a pattern. It isn’t the question. It’s a pattern of controlling the press.”

I went to whitehouse.gov and complained about their controlling the questions at the "open" town meeting.

Then, I wrote to Helen Thomas and thanked her for speaking out. helent@hearstdc.com

[raja]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Karl Denninger, possibly a kook, possibly not, recently suggested that people should stop buying anything except necessities: "We go on a consumption strike until and unless our demands are met." http://market-ticker.org/archives/2009/06.html in order to force the "SEC, FBI and Congress" to act with regard to "market manipulation and goverment-sponsored games." Personally, I think it will take armed revolution to change things though I am not advocating that. If you people who vote want change the system is going to have to be changed, and perhaps Denninger's suggestion approaches something that could realistically effect a real change.

Don't you think that politicians fear being voted out of office? Won't the threat of such action alter their behavior IF enough people make their voice heard?

I now keep a file of my Senators' and Representative's phone number and email contact info handy . . . and I plan to be contacting them repeatedly. (To find your representatives, use the finder tool at www.Congress.org or call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.)

The phone works well. You get to talk to someone in the office who will actually listen (my experience, anyway). It's fun to vent . . . try it.

In addition to phone calls, here's a letter I sent to my Representatives . . . and all my contacts so they could send it to their representatives:

Dear Representative,

At a time when about one-in-ten Americans are unemployed, and thousands are losing their homes through foreclosure, Goldman Sachs has just announced that it will make record bonus payouts to its employees.

"Staff at Goldman Sachs staff can look forward to the biggest bonus payouts in the firm's 140-year history after a spectacular first half of the year, sparking concern that the big investment banks which survived the credit crunch will derail financial regulation reforms." (The Observer, Sunday 21 June 2009)

How is it that so many retirees and other citizens have lost half their savings in the stock market, while the bankers and Wall Street financiers are making record profits?

The answer is that our unjust financial system is run by the greedy and enabled by you, the politicians, who are either too ignorant, too corrupt or too powerless to regulate the profiteers. It's time for a change, and not Obama's change, which is just more of the same (Geithner and Summers).

Therefore, I am going to vote against every incumbent politician who does not convince me that they have done something substantial to correct this unjust system. I will also urge all my friends, relatives and acquaintances to do the same. Here is what I expect from my elected officials who want my vote:

1. A clear explanation of the causes of the economic crisis, including a laundry list of all the mistakes and fraud, as well as an accounting of those responsible. This should include details of financial deregulation and other misguided policies (e.g., the repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act, creation excessive credit that allowed the housing bubble, etc.)

2. The institution of laws to end the revolving door between federal regulators and the financial industry.

3. The prosecution and punishment (including clawback) for those who fraudulently sold toxic assets.

4. The prosecution and punishment for those in the rating agencies who enabled fraud.

5. Prosecution and punishment for government officials and regulators who enabled fraudulent and criminal activity by others.

6. The creation of effective laws to prevent this type of crisis from happening again.

Things have gone too far . . . .

The public is becoming more and more aware of what's going on, and they will express their anger at the ballot box.
You'll need more than money from wealthy campaign contributors to win your next election . . . .
________________

If you're angry, too, write, email or call your representatives
To find your representatives, use the finder tool at www.Congress.org or call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.

[raja]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Karl Denninger, possibly a kook, possibly not, recently suggested that people should stop buying anything except necessities: "We go on a consumption strike until and unless our demands are met." http://market-ticker.org/archives/2009/06.html in order to force the "SEC, FBI and Congress" to act with regard to "market manipulation and goverment-sponsored games." Personally, I think it will take armed revolution to change things though I am not advocating that. If you people who vote want change the system is going to have to be changed, and perhaps Denninger's suggestion approaches something that could realistically effect a real change.

Another alternative form of action is to move your money out of the big superbanks into small regional banks that are found in every community.

People forget that banks are businesses that depend on their customers. They will fail if people stop using them. Dont' you think that would get their attention . . . and the attention of the politicians that they support?

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Don't you think that politicians fear being voted out of office? Won't the threat of such action alter their behavior IF enough people make their voice heard?

I now keep a file of my Senators' and Representative's phone number and email contact info handy . . . and I plan to be contacting them repeatedly. (To find your representatives, use the finder tool at www.Congress.org or call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.)

The phone works well. You get to talk to someone in the office who will actually listen (my experience, anyway). It's fun to vent . . . try it.

In addition to phone calls, here's a letter I sent to my Representatives . . . and all my contacts so they could send it to their representatives:

Dear Representative,

At a time when about one-in-ten Americans are unemployed, and thousands are losing their homes through foreclosure, Goldman Sachs has just announced that it will make record bonus payouts to its employees.

"Staff at Goldman Sachs staff can look forward to the biggest bonus payouts in the firm's 140-year history after a spectacular first half of the year, sparking concern that the big investment banks which survived the credit crunch will derail financial regulation reforms." (The Observer, Sunday 21 June 2009)

How is it that so many retirees and other citizens have lost half their savings in the stock market, while the bankers and Wall Street financiers are making record profits?

The answer is that our unjust financial system is run by the greedy and enabled by you, the politicians, who are either too ignorant, too corrupt or too powerless to regulate the profiteers. It's time for a change, and not Obama's change, which is just more of the same (Geithner and Summers).

Therefore, I am going to vote against every incumbent politician who does not convince me that they have done something substantial to correct this unjust system. I will also urge all my friends, relatives and acquaintances to do the same. Here is what I expect from my elected officials who want my vote:

1. A clear explanation of the causes of the economic crisis, including a laundry list of all the mistakes and fraud, as well as an accounting of those responsible. This should include details of financial deregulation and other misguided policies (e.g., the repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act, creation excessive credit that allowed the housing bubble, etc.)

2. The institution of laws to end the revolving door between federal regulators and the financial industry.

3. The prosecution and punishment (including clawback) for those who fraudulently sold toxic assets.

4. The prosecution and punishment for those in the rating agencies who enabled fraud.

5. Prosecution and punishment for government officials and regulators who enabled fraudulent and criminal activity by others.

6. The creation of effective laws to prevent this type of crisis from happening again.

Things have gone too far . . . .

The public is becoming more and more aware of what's going on, and they will express their anger at the ballot box.
You'll need more than money from wealthy campaign contributors to win your next election . . . .
________________

If you're angry, too, write, email or call your representatives
To find your representatives, use the finder tool at www.Congress.org or call the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121.

raja, I've been trying to think of another word besides "applaud" to offer you a compliment on your energy to do what you described. I would write "I applaud your efforts," but if I actually applauded it would be a waste of my energy just as I see the reality of your efforts.

The key word in what you wrote as you noted is "IF."

Some of the people in Iran recently got pissed off enough at what they perceived to be happening to have raised a ruckus. Good for them, in my opinion, but unless such discontent continues unendingly to be expressed seriously, it will get no where. Americans to my meager assessment are not anywhere near being pissed off enough to make your elected officials consider changing anything except perhaps in some cosmetic degree. Probably more people are looking to government to solve the problems, and it has been our government that allowed the problems in the first place. As long as the officials keep telling the average voter, "we are feeling your pain," then I believe the average voter will believe all that can be done is being done, while in fact nothing in the system changes. I think government is a necessity, but it is a failure when its ultimate focus is primarily for those who financially enabled its ascent into power.

I'm all for freedom speech, but if "speech" equates to dollar donations to candidates, then such "speech" is the root of the evils under which the average citizens of this country endure. I believe you can look at the big donations to candidates and the monied-interests donate to both candidates in many if not most of the races. The financial elite doesn't to my knowledge determine who wins except to the extent of financing candidates abilities to flood the TV with ads, but to the monied-interests I expect it makes no great difference who wins as they have "invested" both ways.

My answer of doing nothing is the worst answer, and clue's of getting mostly out of the US is little better. I'm not sure writing is an answer either, but certainly I will not write that you are wrong to try. EDIT: What's the old saying? "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will do no harm." That may sound as though I advocate violence, which I do not, but words on paper don't carry much weight as I see things.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Another alternative form of action is to move your money out of the big superbanks into small regional banks that are found in every community.

People forget that banks are businesses that depend on their customers. They will fail if people stop using them. Dont' you think that would get their attention . . . and the attention of the politicians that they support?

I haven't used banks in years (at least I don't perceive that I have), because I think banks are mostly shit.

What you are writing about is a type of boycott, and that is what Denninger or one of his readers may have first suggested with a serious buyer's strike. The problem with the notion of any boycott is the mobilization of enough participants to make a impact. Just as you suggest with regard to writing elected officials, IF enough were to act in similar manner, then something might change.

I suppose it is correct right now that deprivations are being forced on some percentage of our population to a greater degree than most any of us are capable of remembering. People don't like deprivation, and I imagine that is especially true for today's Americans after the profligacy of the recent past decade(s). It's hard for me to imagine that some organized efforts could succeed in getting more consumers to voluntarily limit their consumption mostly to necessities. Now if the economy continues to downslide, and there is more penury, then people will definitely limit their consumption by necessity to those things they can even afford that are necessities.

Such forced deprivation upon the citizens by the weakening of the economy is one thing; perhaps something for which the pols would advance "solutions" to help those suffering--thus appearing to be the "good guys."

On the other hand, for the populace to voluntarily cut back and voluntarily subject itself to some sort of pain in order to try to force expected moral/correct behavior out of elected officials in another. People might end up either way with greater deprivations than exist now. The difficulty with some level of greater deprivation as a result of choice of the consumer is, I surmise, that most do not think it is an answer to the problem, i.e. the problem is elsewhere and we expect the government to solve it, so why would we want to force the government into changing the way it operates. I hope that isn't too convoluted.

[Finster]

Re: R. Nader comments on R. Perot's Prophecies re:GM, Nafta

Great post Jim. I echo what c1ue said. Although my age is a little more than his.

Me three. It was interesting to read about some of your votes and why partly because I did the same thing for much the same reasons. Never been real crazy about Nader, but he sure nails this one. "There are many like Perot who must be watching the day’s news and saying “we told you so, but you didn’t listen then and you are not listening now.”