MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

[marvenger]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

yeah but what this guy is saying and as Rajiv has subtly pointed out is that if you're storing the hydrogen in your house then the energy density is not a problem, turn the basement into a hydrogen tank I guess. No one is saying that it is more efficient than oil, its just sustainable and you've got to try and make it as efficient as possible.

[Guest]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

VIT - I know that hydrogen is by far the most difficult gas to contain, but using liquefied methane out of a tank in the back of a car is actually extemely safe at least in incendiary situations. It has been used in rural provinces at least in Italy, France and Spain for decades. In the mid 1990's I was living and working in Italy, in Southern Tuscany. I used to commute about fifty miles a day to work and drove an old Alfa Romeo sports coupe? So I did what all the local farmers there do and converted it to methane. They all do this straight out of mom and pop garages. There are state sponsored inspection and testing stations where you then take the vehicle to have it licensed for the conversion.

They put a gigantic carbon fibre methane tank in the trunk of the car and hook up the engine to run on both gasoline and methane. You can flip a switch in the car to convert literally as you are driving.

Fast forward to a year later, one fine winter afternoon, I drove several miles up into the mountains to eat at a rustic Pizzeria with some friends. We are at 6000 meters in the Appenines. Hlaf way through dinner, my little Alfa Romeo caught fire off some ancient electrics in the hot engine, and the fire department was called. The whole restaurant piled outside to "watch the show". I had four super expensive brand new "thermal tires" on the car, about $300 each (they melt the ice to grip).

Fire department took about 40 minutes to arrive, and after 10 minutes the flames coming up from the bonnet of the car (the engine was on fire) were 15 feet tall. Then the tires exploded, one by one, and the front end of the car got so hot that the entire engine block was just a fused lump of melted parts afterwards. No-one knew that there was something like a 60 gallon tank of liquefied methane in the trunk of the car. The rear tires blew out and started blazing too.

Well an hour and a half later the put out the fire, but absolutely nothing happened to that tank. So it seems to me the critical issues with hydrogen powered cars today are A) impact safety on the rear end, and B) perhaps most important, figure out how to keep hydrogen from leaking. That seems the biggest problem of all, no? BTW, I went out and bought another Alfa Romeo and put another one of the same methane tanks on it. I think I was paying about 3 cents a mile so it was unbelievably cheap. You could take long distance trips running on methane and it was so cheap as to be almost pocket change.

Absolutely true. If we would get some "real" small and reliable battery which can store substantial energy inside this would change our world I guess.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

... Here in Australia where fresh water is pretty scarce, the government banned individual households from having rainwater storage tanks, they said they were unsightly and the public couldn't be trusted to manage them themselves. ...

Lordy Matey. You don't know how depressing that is to hear. I thought you guys down under still had more respect for individual liberty than that.

Is there anywhere left on this planet with some sense ... preferrably a place where they speak some derivative of the Kings English, as I'm too old to learn much else?

[marvenger]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

I don't know mate but if you discover it please let me know.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

I don't know mate but if you discover it please let me know.

I'll do my best. Take care.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

Well an hour and a half later the put out the fire, but absolutely nothing happened to that tank.

That's quite a story, chap.

[xtronics]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

if you're storing the hydrogen in your house then the energy density is not a problem, turn the basement into a hydrogen tank I guess.

Not only are you missing important ecconomic points - but hydrogen is explosive from 4% to 90 some % concentrations and is extremely hazardous to handle. You have seen signs forbidding propane in tunnels - propane is nothing compared to hydrogen. I would not park a hydrogen tank in my garage - it rots its containment tank - it leaks through the smallest pores - it is not used as fuel for many good reasons. It is just a boondoggle.

See NASA's hydrogen safety material:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...NZZ62fG_-2JvTw

[we_are_toast]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

If you noticed, Nocera only talked of household usage. This makes sense -- because then you can use the 5000psi tanks -- because size of the tank should not matter. Also, the hydrogen and oxygen could potentially be used as fuel gas for cooking and hot water rather than just for electricity

Sorry, I don't see the energy density of pressurized tanks to be anywhere near what is needed to make it economically viable. The tanks would require a delivery mechanism which would make the net energy gain pretty small.

Consider a little easy math - take the cycle life of a battery times its capacity in kWh to get the total kWh that can possible be withdrawn from this battery. Now, divide its cost by those kWh. (be sure you don't confuse kWh with Wh). Pretend the energy to charge the battery is free. Compare this cost to other forms of energy - like electric utility power. Notice that things are out of whack by many magnitudes...

I have to disagree here. For rural residents, the cost of power lines far exceed the cost of battery storage. I live off the grid and have done the math. The replacement cost of my batteries will be about $20.00/month, which is more that the KWh monthly cost of the electricity from a utility, but when you consider the costs of delivery from the utility, solar/batteries is a far better deal.

There are also some big advances being made in lead/acid battery technology (honeycomb plates) and hopefully nanotubes some day.

Hydrogen storage is far more feasible for utilities than residential. Large solar and wind generation facilities could store excess energy in liquefied hydrogen form and use it in off peak production hours to power slightly modified turbines.

For now, the bigger bang for the buck and the best opportunity to get the oil needle out of our arm is through a better battery.

[Rajiv]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

Not only are you missing important ecconomic points - but hydrogen is explosive from 4% to 90 some % concentrations and is extremely hazardous to handle. You have seen signs forbidding propane in tunnels - propane is nothing compared to hydrogen. I would not park a hydrogen tank in my garage - it rots its containment tank - it leaks through the smallest pores - it is not used as fuel for many good reasons. It is just a boondoggle.

See NASA's hydrogen safety material:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...NZZ62fG_-2JvTw

Yes. Storage indeed has been one of the biggest issues with Hydrogen, becuase of the leakage issues. I believe that the DOE link in fact addresses the issue.

The inner liner of the tank is a high molecular weight polymer that serves as a hydrogen gas permeation barrier.

That said, I do not believe that such tanks have been in use for a long enough time to determine whether such linings deteriorate with age, and when such tanks may become hazardous. Such assessments shall have to be done before widespread hydrogen storage can be adopted.

[xtronics]

Re: MIT Energy Storage Discovery Could Lead to ‘Unlimited’ Solar Power

I have to disagree here. For rural residents, the cost of power lines far exceed the cost of battery storage. I live off the grid and have done the math. The replacement cost of my batteries will be about $20.00/month, which is more that the KWh monthly cost of the electricity from a utility, but when you consider the costs of delivery from the utility, solar/batteries is a far better deal.

If you are talking about doing A power-line build out - perhaps - but that isn't what the boondoggle is about.

There are also some big advances being made in lead/acid battery technology (honeycomb plates) and hopefully nanotubes some day.

My business is in backup power - there has been just about zero change in the cost of lead-acid batteries for the last 20 years. Quote price of real stuff that has a price on it.

Hydrogen storage is far more feasible for utilities than residential.

Why in the world would a utility take perfectly good electricity to convert hydrogen ash (AKA water) into hydrogen? I suppose they might as a publicity stunt?

Large solar and wind generation facilities could store excess energy in liquefied hydrogen form and use it in off peak production hours to power slightly modified turbines.

Wind power is a marketing ploy - nothing else. It produces very little energy at very high expense.

For now, the bigger bang for the buck and the best opportunity to get the oil needle out of our arm is through a better battery.

Well you had better get busy changing the laws of physics - Batteries don't just have to get a little better - they would have to get 100 times better to get economically interesting for use in the power grid.

Reality is that thing which does not go away when you quit believing in it.