Money as Debt

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

You still didn't answer the question. Now, of course people would find alternatives to trade, Silver or Gold would come to be used. Bart, I understand money, the problems is with those that don't. Yet, my safety depends on keeping those that don't understand money docile and productive, if the greed of those that are in control gets totally out of hand, it is chaos for us all.

Then answer it yourself by just substituting credit in the basic equation. Nobody is forcing anyone to go into debt.

I've also made no agreement nor am I under obligation to answer what appears to me to be an invalid or leading question. As I noted in my first answer, I have little idea where you're headed with that currency question and until I do there's little point in pursuing it.
I've been involved in three other long threads on two different boards over the years about the general "money = debt" concept and they stayed unresolved... for whatever reasons.

This is not about whether silver and gold would be a wise answer or not, nor about whether they would come to be used either - just in case.

The die is pretty much cast on the greed, etc. of those in control, and greed has also been around since dirt. I submit it's a matter of effectively dealing with that, and ways to prevent the "scum" from gaining control again with some type of new system.

My point, besides the two issues noted above, is that I don't know who backed that video and I'm not a terribly trusting soul when it comes to money and banking.

I most definitely agree that education about money and our existing system is sorely lacking (indeed, my whole site is about that area and also general investing and trading), and that's why I posted those points.

[Sapiens]

Re: Money as Debt

I've also made no agreement nor am I under obligation to answer what appears to me to be an invalid or leading question. As I noted in my first answer, I have little idea where you're headed with that currency question and until I do there's little point in pursuing it.
I've been involved in three other long threads on two different boards over the years about the general "money = debt" concept and they stayed unresolved... for whatever reasons.

Bart, please excuse and give some latitude to my forward and manipulate manners, since they are a consequence of a rapacious environment. I have yet to master the intricacies and protocols of these forums, it is not my intent to offend your sensibilities.

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

Bart, please excuse and give some latitude to my forward and manipulate manners, since they are a consequence of a rapacious environment. I have yet to master the intricacies and protocols of these forums, it is not my intent to offend your sensibilities.

Cool and wilco - written communication is so subject to wild interpretation, and 'net boards can be "special" sometimes. iTulip is the mildest and most mannerly one I'm on and I can easily come across as overbearing sometimes.

To your point though, I truly and honestly don't know where you're going with the currency distribution issue. I thought what we were discussing was the creation and destruction of money, and thought I'd answered the alternate methods of creation issue with those two examples.

[Sapiens]

Re: Money as Debt

To your point though, I truly and honestly don't know where you're going with the currency distribution issue. I thought what we were discussing was the creation and destruction of money, and thought I'd answered the alternate methods of creation issue with those two examples.

Bart,

The current system is very ingenious, pioneered through the establishment of the Bank of England.

The printed pieces of paper or bank notes do not become currency until they are collaterized. Collaterized in this instance means that the notes are not currency until someone borrows them, be it the gov. or an individual.

http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefe...int/fed01.html

Virtually all of currency notes in use are Federal Reserve notes. Each Federal Reserve Bank is required by law to pledge collateral at least equal to the amount of currency it has issued into circulation. The bulk of the collateral pledged is in the form of U.S. Government securities and gold certificates owned by the Federal Reserve Banks.

(Emphasis mine)

[Sapiens]

The emergence of a National Bank in England and a funded National Debt

The emergence of a National Bank in England and a funded National Debt

http://www.dmo.gov.uk/index.aspx?page=About/BOE_History

In England the argument for a form of bank gathered support after the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688 when William of Orange and Queen Mary ascended to the throne of England. However, it took a London-based Scottish entrepreneur, named William Paterson to propose an idea that eventually found support. Patterson's proposal for a “Bank of England” and a “fund for perpetual Interest” (without mention of bills) was eventually passed by Parliament. Patterson was supported by two powerful personalities - Charles Montagu, Chancellor of the Exchequer and Michael Godfrey a leading merchant from the City. The public were invited to invest in the new project and it was these subscriptions totalling £1.2 million that were to form the initial capital stock of the Bank of England and were lent on to the Government in return for a Royal Charter.

In the beginning the Bank was the Government's banker; managing the Government's accounts and providing and arranging loans to the Government. It was also a commercial bank, dealing in bills - the then total equivalent of overdraft finance, furnishing finance for trade and took deposits and issued notes. The concept “credit” or “imaginary money” emerged during this period also. It was realised that money could take on new forms, possess no intrinsic value and yet still retain qualities to fulfil payment obligations. Therefore at the same time that the National Debt was born, paper money came into existence.

(emphasis mine)

[Charles Mackay]

Re: Money as Debt

Terrific video! People are so brainwashed and ignorant that it takes a Canadian artist to present the problem in a way people can understand it. Russo tried but it didn't get any traction. Catherine Austin Fitts is trying also.

The video was more valuable in presenting the problem rather than offering a solution. I like Antal Fekete's solution of gold with "real bills" circulating as the ultimate solution to freeing men from the shackles of the elite banksters.

My favorite part was when he talked of interviewing college educated economists and businessmen who didn't have a clue about how money was created. No they wouldn't.. the banksters have blinders on the media and the education system.

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

Bart,

The current system is very ingenious, pioneered through the establishment of the Bank of England.

The printed pieces of paper or bank notes do not become currency until they are collaterized. Collaterized in this instance means that the notes are not currency until someone borrows them, be it the gov. or an individual.

Virtually all of currency notes in use are Federal Reserve notes. Each Federal Reserve Bank is required by law to pledge collateral at least equal to the amount of currency it has issued into circulation. The bulk of the collateral pledged is in the form of U.S. Government securities and gold certificates owned by the Federal Reserve Banks.

http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefe...int/fed01.html


(Emphasis mine)

Yes, that's all technically true if a bit dated.

In actual practice though and regardless of any laws or history, money is both what people say it is and is an idea backed by confidence.
If the Fed prints it and the banks and people accept it, it's still created money. If you want to call that debt just because of the double entry book keeping in between, then we're dealing with theory and not practice.

[bart]

Re: The emergence of a National Bank in England and a funded National Debt

The emergence of a National Bank in England and a funded National Debt

http://www.dmo.gov.uk/index.aspx?page=About/BOE_History

In England the argument for a form of bank gathered support after the “Glorious Revolution” of 1688 when William of Orange and Queen Mary ascended to the throne of England. However, it took a London-based Scottish entrepreneur, named William Paterson to propose an idea that eventually found support. Patterson's proposal for a “Bank of England” and a “fund for perpetual Interest” (without mention of bills) was eventually passed by Parliament. Patterson was supported by two powerful personalities - Charles Montagu, Chancellor of the Exchequer and Michael Godfrey a leading merchant from the City. The public were invited to invest in the new project and it was these subscriptions totalling £1.2 million that were to form the initial capital stock of the Bank of England and were lent on to the Government in return for a Royal Charter.

In the beginning the Bank was the Government's banker; managing the Government's accounts and providing and arranging loans to the Government. It was also a commercial bank, dealing in bills - the then total equivalent of overdraft finance, furnishing finance for trade and took deposits and issued notes. The concept “credit” or “imaginary money” emerged during this period also. It was realised that money could take on new forms, possess no intrinsic value and yet still retain qualities to fulfil payment obligations. Therefore at the same time that the National Debt was born, paper money came into existence.

(emphasis mine)

Again all pretty much true, although I could make lots of points about the Roman Empire and others being very similar. Credit also existed way before that period in England. The Bank of England and its structure is not unique and similar entities existed BCE.

I have little clue what that has to do with "money = debt" and especially that all money would disappear if all debt did.

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

The video was more valuable in presenting the problem rather than offering a solution.

Watch the last 10 minutes or so of the video called "Money Masters" for one solution.

[Sapiens]

Re: Money as Debt

Yes, that's all technically true if a bit dated.

In actual practice though and regardless of any laws or history, money is both what people say it is and is an idea backed by confidence.
If the Fed prints it and the banks and people accept it, it's still created money. If you want to call that debt just because of the double entry book keeping in between, then we're dealing with theory and not practice.

Are you serious? A bit dated perhaps to you, yet if you have not noticed, the system is presently in full effect. To make it clear, if the notes are not “collaterized” before putting them in circulation, then it is pure counterfeiting. A nuanced distinction, but a fundamentally essential concept. So is not theoretical.

I have little clue what that has to do with "money = debt" and especially that all money would disappear if all debt did.

That’s the ingenious part. Most people have no clue what to do with it, therefore they are the most victimized. Those of us that understand it, pass most of the burden we can to those that don’t understand it.

The point is that the system is not sustainable.

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

Are you serious? A bit dated perhaps to you, yet if you have not noticed, the system is presently in full effect. To make it clear, if the notes are not “collaterized” before putting them in circulation, then it is pure counterfeiting. A nuanced distinction, but a fundamentally essential concept. So is not theoretical.

Yes - I'm serious... and you seem to have little clue what I'm driving at.

The previous three times I've participated in discussions like these have degraded into sarcastic and similar comments, and almost a religious or proselytizing fervor.

The basic point being missed, although there are others, is that money can exist and has existed without debt.
"Money = debt" is incomplete at best.

That’s the ingenious part. Most people have no clue what to do with it, therefore they are the most victimized. Those of us that understand it, pass most of the burden we can to those that don’t understand it.

The point is that the system is not sustainable.

I note that sustainability is not the topic, and even you bringing it up is odd at least partially because it implies that somehow I think it is (I don't).

[Rajiv]

Re: Money as Debt

Sapiens,

another site to look at is Complementary Currency Systems. From its introduction Introduction to the foundation and
practice of appropriate economics

Forming an economic network in which all are included, which has both values and ethics embedded in the core concept makes it possible to devise systems which work towards economic solutions to social and environmental challenges. Appropriate economics is therefore a process of applying broad-based community determined values through an ethical system that has an impact on the economic lives of people. Unlike conventional economic thinking which divorces social concerns from economic thinking, appropriate economics sees economic relations fundamentally as social relations. It provides a means for people to relate economically with each other as they would want to relate with each other socially. In this way, money is seen as media, a form of communication between people. One can use money that talks down to people, or one can use money that speaks on even terms with people.

Such systems naturally encourage cooperation, which means sharing and working together at the same time, and reciprocation, which means taking turns sharing and working together over time. In addition, these networks must encourage both self-reliance, which means helping oneself and one’s kin, as well as mutual aid, which means helping people that we do not personally know. These four elements are the foundation of social interdependence and socio-economic solidarity. The identification of local human and natural assets in improving the local economy helps local resources to meet local needs, building social capital and socio-economic solidarity in the process by narrowing the gap between those who have more than they need and those whose needs go unmet, to ensure that everyone has enough.

Appropriate economics means a decentralized, bottom-up process, and must therefore be founded on a wide variety of local assets. This includes community input, choice, and collaboration, in the identification of issues that concern the community most. By encouraging community participation in identifying social and economic issues and setting goals, people come back to the center of the economy again, which is why in Asia the movement for an appropriate economics is called a People’s Economy movement. Starting from the bottom level, it is possible to design systems which achieve the social, economic and environmental goals of the community. When people’s needs are met at the local level, the regional and national economies are also likely to be much stronger.

Also there is a large library of documents including Michael Hudson's articles.

[Paul Grignon]

Re: Money as Debt

hello

I am Paul Grignon, artist and animator, sole creator of the movie, Money as Debt.

http://www.paulgrignon.com

No specific funding was required as I did everything myself except the final voiceover, which was provided by a neighbour. Of course I do have to maintain my extensive computer hardare and software and pay my living expenses so if you watched it online please BUY a copy! I am currently working on a 94-minute sequel that will answer many of the questions posed in this thread and I need the income to make it possible.

http://moneyasdebt.net/

For the history of why, when and how it was created see:

http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/Mone...sComments.html

See my promotional brochure attached.

MoneyasDebtpromotion.pdf

For those of you who have watched the movie online I urge you to support my work (living expenses) by buying a copy or better yet a wholesale box of 10 which entitles you to hold public showings and sell the DVD's to support your monetary reform activism.

Money as Debt 1 took an estimated 3600 hours of my arthritis-pained work to produce of which 2200 hours of actual final production was put in Jan-June 2006.

Thanks to Charles for his appreciative comments. A friend of Aaron Russo will be showing it to him shortly. Catherine Austin Fitts contacted me just today for a copy.

It was shown at the Bromsgove Conference last year and has been adopted as the core of a new political campaign by the Money Reform Party of the UK (see below)

"The miracle we needed"

"Money as Debt is a masterpiece. Brilliant and of infinite value to mankind."

Dr. Edward Hamlyn, Chairman British Association for Monetary Reform http://www.monetaryreform.org/

---------------------------------------

Anne Belsey, Leader Money Reform Party, UK
OPERATION MONEYASDEBT
Dear Money Reformers,

Paul Grignon’s Money As Debt DVD is probably the best tool for promoting money reform yet to be produced. I hope that you have all watched it, or get the chance to in the near future.

Since starting the Money Reform Party in September 2005 as a vehicle for taking the message of money reform to the British public and their politicians, I have learnt why so many money reformers are daunted by the matter of publicising money reform, which effectively means trying to educate people about the origins of our money supply. It is very difficult. It is incredible, involved and incommensurable.
---

So now we have this DVD. At 47 minutes, it is long enough to get over the salient facts, without being too long, and it involves watching amusing animated graphics rather than listening to a talking head. Best of all, it has a nice gentle Canadian voice-over. Everyone trusts the Canadians. They are both serious-minded and well-intentioned.

Ever since I first watched the DVD at the CCMJ AGM in October, I have been thinking of ways in which the DVD could be used to greatest effect, but it was another Party member, Craig Embleton, who came up with the breakthrough idea of sending one to every MP in the country. I approached Paul Grignon with the idea of producing them under license in this country. He was happy enough, providing the quality could be maintained (for the technically minded, this involves replication rather than duplication).

I want to get a Money As Debt DVD into as many of their hands as possible between now and the next general election, which is probably just over 2 years away. How many DVDs can we afford to produce and distribute in that time? I do not know, but I think that I do now know just how Valerie Singleton and John Noakes used to feel just before Christmas each year.

Let’s crunch some numbers. How many existing money reformers are there in Britain? 200? 300? 400? This email is going to about 200 people, most of whom, I believe, live in Britain. Let’s assume that 100 become interested in Operation MoneyAsDebt and each are prepared to donate an average of £60 to the Fund. There’s our initial £6000.

For our next £6000 I would look to get it from amongst the 5000 individuals who get one of the first batch of DVDs. Besides ourselves, there must be thousands of potential supporters of money reform who just need to learn about the subject. We only need 2% of them to donate an average of £60 each. Thus we can expect to create a self-perpetuating process, educating thousands, then tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of people. At some stage we will reach the critical mass that turns an obscure interest into a mainstream subject. My wild and totally uneducated guess is that the figure will be around the 100,000 mark.

If the DVD has the effect that I imagine, then each one will be passed around and watched by many other people. It is reasonable to assume that 100,000 copies in the right hands will be seen by 1 million people. This million will be the nation’s most thoughtful and influential. The people who decide elections.

I want each mailout (of however many 1000s we can afford) to be An Event. When we send out a DVD to the trades unions, for example, I want every national official in every union to get one. I want it to be something that they discuss amongst themselves. I want to do a mailout to every head-teacher in the country, every health centre, every Chamber of Commerce, every local Greenpeace, FoE, and Amnesty International group, every British Legion club. every Women’s Institute, every Townswomen’s Guild, every Lion’s Club, every Round Table and every Rotary group. And I daresay that there are other significant groups and individuals who should be alerted - satirists and comedians come to mind, what a rich seam for material!

A variation on the above theme is that people actually get something for their donation. So let’s say that for every £5 donated to Operation MoneyAsDebt, the donor receives one Money As Debt DVD. So a donation of £50 will ‘buy’ 10 DVDs for the donor to give/lend/sell to their own acquaintances. This will reduce the size of the ‘national campaign’, but will enable more people to be involved in spreading the word in their own locality.

There is no doubt that what I am proposing is ambitious, but then the whole idea of money reform, if we are serious and not just playing around with nice academic ideas, is ambitious. It’s called history, and we are fortunate to be able to push it in the direction we wish without risking life and limb.

The chance to overturn 300 hundred years of injustice, wholesale embezzlement, widespread misery, poverty, corruption, war and all the other symptoms of debt for the cost of a mere (what?) £100,000 strikes me as being the bargain of the millennium.

This is the sort of moment when people decide whether they are serious in their efforts or mere dabblers. I do not want to be campaigning for money reform in 10 year’s time, nor in 5 year’s time, if I do not have to be.

So, who’s up for it? Who wants to help get Operation MoneyAsDebt rolling?

Anne Belsey

Leader of the Money Reform Party


IT SHOULD BE NOTED:
The original impetus to make this finished movie came from a very senior and very respected member of the American Monetary Institute (http://www.monetary.org) who wanted to give a copy of the original version to every member of the US Senate & Congress. He also was one of 3 primary personal consultants for MAD 1. See also the References page at http://www.moneyasdebt.net

The main reference for the movie is Modern Money Mechanics by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

For MAD 2 I have a wide array of highly knowledgeable and longtime monetary reformers, volunteering to review the script. If anyone on this forum fits that description just send me a request.

Many of the questions raised in this thread have to do with semantics. In my movies I am attempting to speak to the MAINSTREAM who have never given the topic a moment's thought. Please take that into account when calling me to task for perceived "inaccuracies".

The money solution I propose is not limited to big or federal government. Any entity with the ability to spend money into existence and tax it out of existence could create interest and debt free money and create a stable inflation resistant money supply. I personally believe that local currencies on the scale of the city-state would be the most promising revolutionary direction to go at this time. So does Cesar Chavez.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2256



One final comment (this post)

Before continuing to argue any of the points raised in this thread, I strongly urge you all to read

Modern Money Mechanics and The Nature of Money which are downloadable from http://www.moneyasdebt.net

pgrignon@island.net

~Paul

ORIGINAL VERSION: <http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/...y_as_Debt.html

[Charles Mackay]

Re: Money as Debt

hello

I am Paul Grignon, artist and animator, sole creator of the movie, Money as Debt.

Paul, as I stated above your elucidation of the problem was fabulous. Many thanks for that! Your solution was not exactly what I would agree on. Read Fekete's treatise on "real bills"

Do you view the Canadian Fed just as profligate as the US Fed?

Thanks again .. you are a lucky bastard to be able to live on Gabriola!

I go to to SaltSpring Island every summer.

Regards,
Charles

[bart]

Re: Money as Debt

I am Paul Grignon, artist and animator, sole creator of the movie, Money as Debt.

....

Before continuing to argue any of the points raised in this thread, I strongly urge you all to read

Modern Money Mechanics and The Nature of Money which are downloadable from http://www.moneyasdebt.net

pgrignon@island.net

~Paul

ORIGINAL VERSION: <http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/...y_as_Debt.html

Thanks very much for your input and also for your very good money treatment in the video and on your site. It and your site contain so much more truth about money than is generally understood, as well as good suggestions about where we should go, that these comments of mine are actually a large understatement.

That said however, I still strongly disagree with the "Money as Debt" statement. As I noted above, the basic point being missed and underplayed, although there are others, is that money can exist and has existed without debt.

If it were stated as "Money as mostly debt today" and most especially if it were made much more clear that "money = debt" is a false idea, I would not disagree. But the statement is just simply too broad as well as being historically inaccurate. The idea that all money would disappear if all debt did, while apparently sound mathematically, would not stand up to reality or human nature and also has no significant historical precedent.

Note too that I almost didn't respond initially with my objections since your work does have so much truth and obviously many have benefited from your understanding and "labor of love".

I did actually read the 120+ page doc by Mr. Kutyn and I find little to even quibble with (although there are a few small areas) and was also happy to see that, like myself, he also finds fault with the limited nature of the Real Bills Doctrine. However, where it falls down in the full universe of defining money and its nature, is that it only starts in the Middle Ages and also only covers Western economies and philosophies of money.

The Fed publication you cite (Modern Money Mechanics), and that I also have read, suffers from a much more extreme short focus view... and again, I also find little with which to quibble in it.

Lastly, I will not comment on the political party or any issues surrounding it.