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Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

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  • Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

    Part 1/2
    4min 23 sec

    Part 2/2
    7min 24 sec


    And now courtesy Washington's blog, the implications of what was discussed

    If Credit is Not Created Out of Excess Reserves, What Does That Mean?



    We've all been taught that banks first build up deposits, and then extend credit and loan out their excess reserves.
    But critics of the current banking system claim that this is not true, and that the order is actually reversed.

    Sounds crazy, right?

    Certainly.

    But as PhD economist Steve Keen pointed out last week, 2 Nobel-prize winning economists have shown that the assumption that reserves are created from excess deposits is not true:
    The model of money creation that Obama’s economic advisers have sold him was shown to be empirically false over three decades ago.

    The first economist to establish this was the American Post Keynesian economist Basil Moore, but similar results were found by two of the staunchest neoclassical economists, Nobel Prize winners Kydland and Prescott in a 1990 paper Real Facts and a Monetary Myth.

    Looking at the timing of economic variables, they found that credit money was created about 4 periods before government money. However, the “money multiplier” model argues that government money is created first to bolster bank reserves, and then credit money is created afterwards by the process of banks lending out their increased reserves.

    Kydland and Prescott observed at the end of their paper that:

    Introducing money and credit into growth theory in a way that accounts for the cyclical behavior of monetary as well as real aggregates is an important open problem in economics.

    In other words, if the conventional view that excess reserves (stemming either from customer deposits or government infusions of money) lead to increased lending were correct, then Kydland and Prescott would have found that credit is extended by the banks (i.e. loaned out to customers) after the banks received infusions of money from the government. Instead, they found that the extension of credit preceded the receipt of government monies.

    Keen explained in an interview Friday that 25 years of research shows that creation of debt by banks precedes creation of government money, and that debt money is created first and precedes creation of credit money.

    As Mish has previously noted:
    Conventional wisdom regarding the money multiplier is wrong. Australian economist Steve Keen notes that in a debt based society, expansion of credit comes first and reserves come later.

    And as Edward Harrison writes:
    Central to [Keen's] ideas is the concept that demand for credit creates loans which create reserves, which is the opposite causality of what one sees in neoclassical economics.

    This angle of the banking system has actually been discussed for many years by leading experts:
    “[Banks] do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts."
    - 1960s Chicago Federal Reserve Bank booklet entitled “Modern Money Mechanics”

    “The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.”
    - Economist John Kenneth Galbraith

    [W]hen a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower.
    - Robert B. Anderson, Secretary of the Treasury under Eisenhower, in an interview reported in the August 31, 1959 issue of U.S. News and World Report

    “Do private banks issue money today? Yes. Although banks no longer have the right to issue bank notes, they can create money in the form of bank deposits when they lend money to businesses, or buy securities. . . . The important thing to remember is that when banks lend money they don’t necessarily take it from anyone else to lend. Thus they ‘create’ it.”
    -Congressman Wright Patman, Money Facts (House Committee on Banking and Currency, 1964)

    "The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented.
    - Sir Josiah Stamp, president of the Bank of England and the second richest man in Britain in the 1920s.

    Banks create money. That is what they are for. . . . The manufacturing process to make money consists of making an entry in a book. That is all. . . . Each and every time a Bank makes a loan . . . new Bank credit is created -- brand new money.
    - Graham Towers, Governor of the Bank of Canada from 1935 to 1955

    Indeed, some critics of the current banking system - like Ellen Brown - claim that the entire credit-creation system is an accounting sleight-of-hand, and that banks simply enter into loan agreements, and then obtain the reserves later from the Fed or in the open market. In other words, they claim that banks extend money first, and then increase their reserves on their books later to cover the loans.

    So What Does It Mean?

    So what does it mean that loans and debt are created first, and then reserves and credit come later?

    There are several results.

    First, it makes it less likely than most people think that the giant banks will increase the amount of money they're loaning out to individuals and small businesses. Specifically, since loans are made before new infusions of government cash (Kydland and Prescott), there is not a simple cause-and-effect relationship. So the bailouts to the banks will not necessarily encourage them to make more loans. Indeed, the heads of the big banks have themselves said that they won't really increase such loans until the economy fundamentally stabilizes (no matter how much money the government gives them).

    As Mish writes today:
    A funny thing happened to the inflation theory: Banks aren't lending and proof can be found in excess reserves at member banks.

    Excess Reserves

    ...

    In practice, banks lend money and reserves come later. When defaults pile up, the Fed prints reserves to cover bank losses. Thus, those "excess reserves" aren't going anywhere. They are needed to cover losses. It's best to think of those reserves as a mirage. They don't really exist.

    Second, if banks won't increase their lending in response to government funds, then that argues against inflation and for continuing stagnation in the economy.

    Is This Method of Credit-Creation Unsustainable?

    Going beyond what most economists believe or will publicly discuss (and going beyond what I have any background or inside information to confirm) - monetary reformers like Ellen Brown argue that the entire banking system is based upon a fraud. Specifically, she and other monetary reformers argue that the banks have intentionally spread the false reserves-and-credit first, loans-and-debt later story to confuse people into thinking that the banks are better capitalized than they really are and that the Federal Reserve is keeping better oversight than it really is.

    Moreover, many monetary reformers argue that the truth of loans-before-reserves is hidden in order to obscure the alleged fact that the entire financial system is built on nothing but air. Specifically, Brown argues that unless more and more debt is continually created, since money creation follows debt creation, what we think of as the money supply will shrink, and the economy will crash. In other words, they say that we a massive, ever-expanding debt bubble has been blown for many decades, and that the myth that banks make loans out of their excess reserves helps to fuel the bubble.

    Some evidence for that argument comes from a September 30, 1941 hearing in the House Committee on Banking and Currency, where the then-Chairman of the Federal Reserve (Mariner S. Eccles) said:
    That is what our money system is. If there were no debts in our money system, there wouldn’t be any money.

    Monetary reformers argue that the government should take the power of money creation back from the private banks and the Federal Reserve system.

    Do the monetary reformers go too far? If so, what should the reality of the way credit is created mean for us and the stability of the economy?

  • #2
    Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

    Good post, Rajiv.
    Thanks for it.
    Jim 69 y/o

    "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

    Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

    Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

      All I really want to know is how does this "new" information affect EJ/Fred's ka-poom thesis?

      If I read correctly, it translates to no poom, only an even deeper and prolonged Ka.
      Japan all over again?

      Adeptus
      Warning: Network Engineer talking economics!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

        Originally posted by Adeptus View Post
        All I really want to know is how does this "new" information affect EJ/Fred's ka-poom thesis?

        If I read correctly, it translates to no poom, only an even deeper and prolonged Ka.
        Japan all over again?

        Adeptus
        I doubt this "new" information affects the Ka-Poom thesis.
        1. The credit collapse may dominate the Fed's money creation in the short term due to the large size of the credit bubble, but the Fed will outlast any such collapse.
        2. Despite what the above concludes, the U.S. is not Japan.
          • The Japanese Yen remained in demand even after Japan's collapse as part of the yen carry trade for those who wanted that.
          • Also Japan could borrow domestically from a citizenship that is world renowned for saving in careful domestic investments. Americans have no such reputation for saving and the Treasury is borrowing in huge quantities from anyone who will bid on their debt paper.
        3. The dollar has been flooding the world in far greater quantities and its reserve status (and the U.S. who creates dollars) has created far greater constraints and problems for many nations. Many seek to moderate the dollars unique position and reduce its abundance. There may be (indeed there are reports of this already) that there is a dollar-carry trade, borrowing in the very low U.S. dollar interest rates and lending out somewhere else at higher rates. But the global revulsion of the dollar, or at least the desire to moderate its reserve status, is expected to overwhelm any such carry trade. This dollar rejection or lowered status will raise the price of U.S. imports (starting with oil) far than whatever Japan might have seen.

        We may not see wage inflation in the U.S. for a while, but we will see energy price inflation and supply destruction inflation as soon as the credit bubble gets done its major collapse. If I understand the iTulip analysis correctly, this has already happened. A few dissidents such as myself would not be surprised to see one more major spasm of the debt bubble shortly, as a second "Ka" phase, before arriving at the Poom phase.
        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

          The question to my mind is, as per debt is money part 2, if the banks are not using credit money to create Debt money - what are they offering borrowers for consideration in any loan contract other then a promise, which has now been shown to be not worth the paper it is written on, as evidenced by the bank bailouts, does this data not show lay bare the fradulent nature of banking?
          "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

            Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
            The question to my mind is, as per debt is money part 2, if the banks are not using credit money to create Debt money - what are they offering borrowers for consideration in any loan contract other then a promise, which has now been shown to be not worth the paper it is written on, as evidenced by the bank bailouts, does this data not show lay bare the fradulent nature of banking?
            When I take out a loan from my friendly local bank, they credit my checking account with a promise to pay dollars. I write a check against that account and a merchant cashes that check. This moves that promise from my account to the merchants account. If I pay off the loan, this extinguishes the "promises" that were in my checking account that I used for the payoff.

            There is (essentially) no U.S. credit money. There is only debt money. A modest fraction of that debt money was created by our honorable (:rolleyes U.S. government taking on more debt, but those dollars are really no different than any other, once created. Paper currency notes such as dollar bills are just a portable, non-interest bearing, form of these promises.

            These "dollar" promises suffice for the worlds reserve currency and the national currency of the U.S. exactly because they are widely available, broadly distributed, widely exchangeable for goods and services, accepted by all U.S. national, state and local governments for payment of taxes, and issued by all U.S. national, state (notwithstanding California now and then) and local governments for payment of goods and services and for various social disbursements such as for Social Security and Medicare.

            The status of the dollar as the longstanding currency of the U.S. has resulted in the dollar being written into many and varied a U.S. domestic contract. The status of the dollar as the worlds reserve currency and of the U.S. as the worlds most powerful nation has resulted in the dollar being written into many an international contract and trade agreement, and in large reserve balances of dollars being held by most central banks outside the U.S.

            The essential property of a fiat currency is that it can be widely exchanged for goods and services and used to pay taxes. The total amount of these "dollar" promises outstanding is equal to the total amount of U.S. bank issued debt outstanding (plus a few billion counterfeit dollars from North Korea or CIA black ops, I suppose.) We borrow more, we have more "money." We pay down (or default) debts more, we have less "money." From time to time there are regulatory limits on how much a given bank might have outstanding of such promises, but these limits are (like most banking regulations) easily bent to the whim of the banks.

            The bank bailouts and bank closures don't affect this nor lay bare this. It was already known and continues to be.

            This is not fraudulent, since it is not hidden from the careful observer. If any matter over which there was widespread misconception was thereby fraudulent, then the word "fraud" would be so generally applicable as to be worthless.

            1 1 ,
            Last edited by ThePythonicCow; September 24, 2009, 07:07 AM.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

              The above description of dollars as debt based promises leads me to a position that might differ a little from iTulip's KaPoom theory.

              If we only have a quantity of money at any point in time equal to the quantity of outstanding debt, then it would take great globs of new borrowing to overcome the reduced monetary base caused by the recent (and continuing) debt collapse. I really doubt that private citizens or corporations or state and local governments are going to dramatically increase their borrowing anytime soon. If anything they are shrinking, not expanding, their lending. This leaves it up to the Federal government to generate the new debt. Now I hesitate to say this, but there really does seem to be a limit to new Federal debt. It seems current political pressure keeps the Federal government from increasing its outstanding debt at a rate of more than a couple trillion per year. It would take many years at that rate to replace the many tens of trillions of debt lost in the recent (and likely continuing) debt collapse.

              Meanwhile inflated prices (1) of imports such as energy, (2) of various manufactured goods due to supply chain destruction, and (3) of anything depending on the first two, will not increase the monetary base, but rather alter its application. As these items cost more, we buy less of them and anything else we can do with less of.

              That is, my present thinking as I write this is that the iTulip position isn't quite right. If I understand correctly, the iTulip position presumes that the monetary base is printed fiat money, hence that increasing that base will increase aggregate inflation. iTulip wryly notes that the Fed can and has credibly promised that it will print however many dollars it takes to reinflate the economy. I claim rather that the monetary base is exactly the sum of all outstanding loans, and that base has shrunk and will not regain its old size for a long time.

              Therefore the inflationistas and deflationistas will each continue to claim victory, because one price goes up while another goes down or stays down. Domestic labor and land will remain cheap, while food, energy, consumables and durable goods will get pricier. Furthermore, while the per-unit cost of such goods will increase, the quantity sold and the gross sales thereof will decline.

              There are perhaps ten trillion (just guessing here) U.S. dollars and Treasuries held by foreigners. To a foreigner holding U.S. Treasuries, they are just a promise to pay more dollars. The dollar is a promise, and a Treasury bill is an interest bearing promise of a promise. So for our purposes here, it might as well be all dollars. If the Fed is forced to monetize foreign held debt, it will end up being all dollars eventually anyway.

              As always happens, and as is already happening in this case, when holders of a currency increasingly doubt its long term stable value, they spend it faster, before it risks becoming worth even less. The Arabs are building skyscrapers to nowhere and the Chinese have a nice new stockpile of natural resources and some nice new buildings of their own. Other than some commodity prices getting a bid, this has not directly affected Americans that much so far. Few of these outstanding dollars are returning directly to America because America doesn't have that much worth buying anymore.

              Where Americans will see this is in the increased dollar denominated price of future purchases of energy and goods and commodities and food. This was noted above. The prices of all this, and all that depends on this, and of taxes to our desperate governments, will all go up. But Americans won't have more money to absorb these price increases, so they will buy less of whatever they can do without or with less of.
              Last edited by ThePythonicCow; September 24, 2009, 07:01 AM.
              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                See my comment here

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                  Originally posted by TPC

                  This is not fraudulent, since it is not hidden from the careful observer. If any matter over which there was widespread misconception was thereby fraudulent, then the word "fraud" would be so generally applicable as to be worthless.
                  Hi TPC

                  Baring the macro arguments - I believe it is fradulent, maybe fraud covered in a gosomer of legality but fraud non the less. Please show me what a bank has put up as consideration for a loan contract, If the brower creates the money by virtue of taking the loan and then the bank loans it back to him / her with the promise to cover the loan in case of default, this promise of course has proven to be worthless based on the evidence provided by bailouts world wide, as if this was not known before hand, it seems to me to be glaringly obvious now.

                  INTRODUCTION

                  The mere fact of agreement alone does not make a contract. Both parties to the contract must provide consideration if they wish to sue on the contract. This means that each side must promise to give or do something for the other. (Note: if a contract is made by deed, then consideration is not needed.)
                  For example, if one party, A (the promisor) promises to mow the lawn of another, B (the promisee), A's promise will only be enforceable by B as a contract if B has provided consideration. The consideration from B might normally take the form of a payment of money but could consist of some other service to which A might agree. Further, the promise of a money payment or service in the future is just as sufficient a consideration as payment itself or the actual rendering of the service. Thus the promisee has to give something in return for the promise of the promisor in order to convert a bare promise made in his favour into a binding contract.
                  http://www.lawteacher.net/contract-l...on-lecture.php
                  Last edited by Diarmuid; September 24, 2009, 03:45 PM.
                  "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                    Steve is one cool dude it would be great to have him here as part of iTulip

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                      Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
                      Hi TPC

                      Baring the macro arguments - I believe it is fradulent, maybe fraud covered in a gosomer of legality but fraud non the less. Please show me what a bank has put up as consideration for a loan contract, If the brower creates the money by virtue of taking the loan and then the bank loans it back to him / her with the promise to cover the loan in case of default, this promise of course has proven to be worthless based on the evidence provided by bailouts world wide, as if this was not known before hand, it seems to me to be glaringly obvious now.

                      http://www.lawteacher.net/contract-l...on-lecture.php
                      Diarmud,

                      I hope you looked at my comment here. This is an extremely interesting judgement froma legal case from 1968 in Minnesota, whose appeal went right upto the Minnesota Supreme Court, and the appeal was dismissed both at the district court level, as well as at the Supreme Court level.

                      It definitely reinforces your point of view.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                        Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                        Diarmud,

                        I hope you looked at my comment here. This is an extremely interesting judgement froma legal case from 1968 in Minnesota, whose appeal went right upto the Minnesota Supreme Court, and the appeal was dismissed both at the district court level, as well as at the Supreme Court level.

                        It definitely reinforces your point of view.
                        Hi Rajiv

                        I was aware of this case, but had not seen the detail of the case, was waiting to respond when I got the time to go through it in detail, thank you for posting it.
                        Last edited by Diarmuid; September 24, 2009, 04:49 PM.
                        "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                          Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                          Diarmud,

                          I hope you looked at my comment here. This is an extremely interesting judgement froma legal case from 1968 in Minnesota, whose appeal went right upto the Minnesota Supreme Court, and the appeal was dismissed both at the district court level, as well as at the Supreme Court level.

                          It definitely reinforces your point of view.
                          Why did more Minnesota lawyers not start charging big money for clients in the foreclosure process who want to keep their property? Why wasn't this case repeated over and over? Illuminati? ;)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                            Originally posted by Jay View Post
                            Why did more Minnesota lawyers not start charging big money for clients in the foreclosure process who want to keep their property? Why wasn't this case repeated over and over? Illuminati? ;)

                            From "THE CREDIT RIVER DECISION"

                            Note: It has never been doubted that a Note given on a Consideration which is prohibited by law is void. It has been determined, independent of Acts of Congress, that sailing under the license of an enemy is illegal. The emission of Bills of Credit upon the books of these private Corporations for the purpose of private gain is not warranted by the Constitution of the United States and is unlawful. See Craig v. Mo. 4 Peters Reports 912. This Court can tread only that path which is marked out by duty. M.V.M.

                            JEROME DALY had his own information to reveal about this case, which establishes that between his own revealed information and the fact that Justice Martin V. Mahoney was murdered 6 months after he entered the Credit River Decision on the books of the Court, why the case was never legally overturned, nor can it be.

                            http://worldnewsstand.net/money/the-mahoney-case.html

                            JEROME DALY'S OWN ENTRY

                            REGARDING JUSTICE MAHONEY'S MEMORANDUM

                            FORWARD: The above Judgment was entered by the Court on December 9, 1968. The issue there was simple - Nothing in the law gave the Banks the right to create money on their books. The Bank filed a Notice of Appeal within 10 days. The Appeals statutes must be strictly followed, otherwise the District Court does not acquire Jurisdiction upon Appeal. To effect the Appeal the Bank had to deposit $2.00 with the Clerk within 10 days for payment to the Justice when he made his return to the District Court. The Bank deposited two $1.00 Federal Reserve Notes. The Justice refused the Notes and refused to allow the Appeal upon the grounds that the Notes were unlawful and void for any purpose. The Decision is addressed to the legality of these Notes and the Federal Reserve System. The Cases of Edwards v. Kearnzey and Craig vs Missouri set out in the decision should be studied very carefully as they bear on the inviolability of Contracts. This is the Crux of the whole issue. Jerome Daly.

                            SPECIAL NOTATION. Justice Mahoney denied the use of Federal Reserve Notes, since they represent debt instruments, not true money, from being used to pay for the appeal process itself. In order to get this overturned, since the bank's appeal without the payment being recognized was out of time, it would have required that the Bank of Montgomery, Minnesota bring a Title 42, Section 1983 action against the judicial act of Justice Mahoney for a violation of the Constitution of the United States under color of law or authority, and if successful, have the case remanded back to him to either retry the case or allow the appeal to go through. But the corrupt individuals behind the bank(s) were unable to ever elicit such a decision from any federal court due to the fact that because of their vile hatred for him and what he had done to them and their little Queen's Scheme, had him murdered (same as them murdering him) just about 6 months later. And so, the case stands, just as it was. Amazingly, if they hadn't been so arrogant about the value of their federal reserve notes and paid the Justice just 2 measly silver dollars, or else 4 measly half dollars, or else 8 measly quarters, or else 20 measly dimes, or else 40 measly nickels, or else 200 measly pennies, they could have had their appeal and would not have had to get blood on their hands.

                            As it is, they are now known for their bloody ways, and the day will come when the American people will reap vengeance upon them for such a heinous and villainous act. Amen.

                            http://www.worldnewsstand.net/money/jerome-daly.html

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Max Keiser and Steve Keen and the implications of what was said

                              Originally posted by Jay View Post
                              Why did more Minnesota lawyers not start charging big money for clients in the foreclosure process who want to keep their property? Why wasn't this case repeated over and over? Illuminati? ;)
                              indeed, maybe the answer to your question is congruent to the answer to the question posed in this thread.


                              http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12050

                              I would answer the question with... Usury, in fact I think it may well be the answer to most of the why? questions posed on this forum, from geopolitical to social to environmental to financial.
                              "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                              Comment

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