College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

[LargoWinch]

I raise my glass to the students, while raising my fist at the Central Banksters.

Runtime: 5min.




Source: Industry Canada

[kingcopper]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

I wish your graph had figures for 2009. I guess we should wait till 2022?

Good tape!

[metalman]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

where do you find these? that's money! you are the man!

[LargoWinch]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

where do you find these? that's money! you are the man!

you are most welcome metalman.

[Rajiv]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

The data is Canadian from Industry Canada's "Consumer Trends Report" from November 2004

Here is Canadian Data for 2007



Also a comparison of College tuition costs from 1940 to 2000



Also more recent trends

[Rekutyn]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

Maybe if most of these idiots had actually gone to school for a marketable field they wouldn't be stuck in this hole. I don't see kids with "Engineer" under their name in those examples.

Welcome to 2009, suckers. No one needs a photographer when everyone at the wedding has a camera phone. No one needs a dance instructor when everyone sits at home watching TV, eating frozen pizza--barely moving. Stupid shit like that might have flown during the bubble when everyone was huffing credit fumes and piling on debt with a front-end loader.

Also, what complete lack of career skills prevents these kids from getting a paid internship in their field? Why are they working at a pizza restaurant? They strike me as indicative of the unmotivated, American attitude. "I got a degree in underwater basket weaving, give me a job that pays seven figures." Chumps.

Work hard and you will be rewarded. Piss away a bunch of credit on a worthless fine arts degree and you will be enslaved. Who the hell needs a degree for art, anyway? Do any famous artists you've ever heard of have degrees? Ya either you got it or you ain't--as Mel Brooks would say.

[World Traveler]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

Times have really changed. I paid tuition $300 per semester to get an MBA from a large and well-known Texas university from 1976 thru 1978. I worked at low wage jobs, paid my living expenses and tuition/books with that, and did minimal borrowing.

My opinion is there are a number of reasons for change in last 30 years. I honestly believe that before they were taught that "greed is good" beginning in early in 1980's, Americans were and were expected to be more civic-minded, and believed that making affordable higher education available to young people was a worthwhile investment in America's future.

I also remember in Chicago in the early 1960's that Mayor Daley fought long and hard to expand the U of Ill campus there, to increase the stature of Chicago and the availability of a first-class state campus in Chicago.

That the explosion in college tuition is coincident with the ascendancy of the FIRE economy is no coincidence. Dr Michael Hudson points out that bankers and Wall Street want low real estate taxes, because that leaves more consumer money on the table to use to bid up housing prices and therefore mortgage interest income for themselves.

As taxes were cut in the 1980's and 1990's, states and the federal government turned increasingly to bonds to finance their expenses. This by itself pushed up the cost of education, because now the government entities owed bankers and bond holders the interest on those bonds, in addition to repayment of the principal.

The huge expansion in the U.S. prison system is another factor, since most prisons are run and paid for by the individual states. In the 1980's prison spending started to crowd out spending on education in most states. And in the 1990's, most states chose to expand prison spending and cut back on spending for education.

The students in the video have my sympathy. They face a much harsher reality than I ever did.

My parents never gave me a dime after age 16 (didn't have enough dimes!). But due to low-cost, state university tuition for both my B.A. (late 1960's) and M.B.A. (late 1970's), I was able to pay tuition, books, room and board via full time summer work and part-time school-year work. I graduated debt-free undergrad and minimal debt for Master's degree. Try doing that today!

[jpatter666]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

Maybe if most of these idiots had actually gone to school for a marketable field they wouldn't be stuck in this hole. I don't see kids with "Engineer" under their name in those examples.

Welcome to 2009, suckers. No one needs a photographer when everyone at the wedding has a camera phone. No one needs a dance instructor when everyone sits at home watching TV, eating frozen pizza--barely moving. Stupid shit like that might have flown during the bubble when everyone was huffing credit fumes and piling on debt with a front-end loader.

Also, what complete lack of career skills prevents these kids from getting a paid internship in their field? Why are they working at a pizza restaurant? They strike me as indicative of the unmotivated, American attitude. "I got a degree in underwater basket weaving, give me a job that pays seven figures." Chumps.

Work hard and you will be rewarded. Piss away a bunch of credit on a worthless fine arts degree and you will be enslaved. Who the hell needs a degree for art, anyway? Do any famous artists you've ever heard of have degrees? Ya either you got it or you ain't--as Mel Brooks would say.

And I'd say you ain't got it -- these kids *are* working hard to achieve their dreams, doesn't seem unmotivated to me. I'm an engineer and some of the sharpest minds I know in the industry have fine arts degrees -- they are some of the best "out of the box" thinkers.

And don't think being an engineer is a magical passport to a job either, when I graduated in the 90s the IT community was in a serious downturn and many of my fellow grads could not get anything for some time.

All this said, I think many colleges embarked on an "arms race" (or better yet, "benefits race") over the past decade, spending on a bunch of unneeded facilities to entice students. When I returned to my alma mater recently after a long absence, I was flabbergasted to see the new student areas -- rock climbing walls, huge entertainment areas, elaborate dining courts, etc, while the old classrooms looked neglected. Seemed to me it was very much designed to "show" well, but once you had paid your tuition, the sordid underbelly showed.

[don]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

thank you metalman. A few friends maybe the answer, but it pales in comparison from what I receive from iTulipers however.

My thanks too, Largo. My daughter is in the second year of her daughter's college education. All of the above apply.

Of course it all depends on one's perspective. This is a couldn't be sweeter FIRE industry bedtime story ;)

[Wild Style]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

And I'd say you ain't got it -- these kids *are* working hard to achieve their dreams, doesn't seem unmotivated to me. I'm an engineer and some of the sharpest minds I know in the industry have fine arts degrees -- they are some of the best "out of the box" thinkers.

And don't think being an engineer is a magical passport to a job either, when I graduated in the 90s the IT community was in a serious downturn and many of my fellow grads could not get anything for some time.

All this said, I think many colleges embarked on an "arms race" (or better yet, "benefits race") over the past decade, spending on a bunch of unneeded facilities to entice students. When I returned to my alma mater recently after a long absence, I was flabbergasted to see the new student areas -- rock climbing walls, huge entertainment areas, elaborate dining courts, etc, while the old classrooms looked neglected. Seemed to me it was very much designed to "show" well, but once you had paid your tuition, the sordid underbelly showed.

I typed out a HUGE post to try and illustrate how things here in reality work as opposed to bizarro world but then i read your post and see you did a good job.

I know MANY engineers who lost their jobs during the dot com bubble and I know many who still can't get jobs. I know people who have had to leave America and go to places like saudi arabia, dubai, japan and hong kong for jobs in engineering.

Also i saw his comparison of a person taking iphone photos at a wedding and comparing them to a paid photographer and decided whats the point, I think this must be opposite day or something.

[Rekutyn]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

And I'd say you ain't got it -- these kids *are* working hard to achieve their dreams, doesn't seem unmotivated to me. I'm an engineer and some of the sharpest minds I know in the industry have fine arts degrees -- they are some of the best "out of the box" thinkers.

Yes, but how does having a fine arts degree make them any more able to think out of the box? Some people are simply born talented. They could have likely gotten an associates degree at community college (or done nothing at all past High School) and had similar career performance. Excuse me for not buying into the concept that college is a time to discover yourself. It seems in your example that these colleagues were simply very talented, regardless of any institutionalization, and had to pass some Bachelors litmus test to get past the clueless HR staff who have no other way to judge candidates.

And don't think being an engineer is a magical passport to a job either, when I graduated in the 90s the IT community was in a serious downturn and many of my fellow grads could not get anything for some time.

I'm not sure that I made such a claim. However, being an engineer will be vastly superior for job eligibility than a fine arts degree. No one is immune to economic downturns! That's not the point the video is trying to make. It's attacking the cost and loans associated with getting a degree. Why not at least get a degree that's got a higher probability of success, no matter what the conditions are in the economy?

All this said, I think many colleges embarked on an "arms race" (or better yet, "benefits race") over the past decade, spending on a bunch of unneeded facilities to entice students. When I returned to my alma mater recently after a long absence, I was flabbergasted to see the new student areas -- rock climbing walls, huge entertainment areas, elaborate dining courts, etc, while the old classrooms looked neglected. Seemed to me it was very much designed to "show" well, but once you had paid your tuition, the sordid underbelly showed.

I won't disagree with that. There's a pretty elaborate setup, similar to what you've described, at my University. Frankly, it panders to the demographic I've attacked already so it requires no further explanation.

I know MANY engineers who lost their jobs during the dot com bubble and I know many who still can't get jobs. I know people who have had to leave America and go to places like saudi arabia, dubai, japan and hong kong for jobs in engineering.

Again, the video and my comment are NOT ABOUT ECONOMIC DOWNTURNS. They're about a bunch of kids complaining because they took out speculative loans to buy something that has no economic value without some inkling of motivation and talent. In a bad economy who would turn down a job in a foreign country? That's looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Also i saw his comparison of a person taking iphone photos at a wedding and comparing them to a paid photographer and decided whats the point, I think this must be opposite day or something.

You're purposefully missing the point of my glib examples to serve some self-indulgent power trip.

Best regards,

[snakela]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

Guys you don't know the half of it. I freakin' LIVE in bloomington.

It was not and still not uncommon to see kids driving around in BMWs and Escalades to go to bars. Its also not uncommon to see perpetual students working food joints while they write their PhD thesis in ancient philosophy or something.

This place was/is a great example of the leveraged consumer and easy FIRE economy credit. I wish I had iTulip 3 years ago when seeing all of it caused the worst case of cognitive dissonance but I couldn't put my finger on it or articulate it to anybody.

I do feel bad for rising tuition and of course there are hard workers there but this place is the "americans are dumb" thread incarnate.

P.S. Mother Bears has awesome pizza.

[don]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

My brother was a 4-0 Engineering major at Syracuse. He went straight to Big Blue, didn't bother even visiting Texas or the Northwest offers. He did his job, got his name on a couple of patents (all owned by IBM) until the great awakening. The national engineer bloodletting woke him half up. He reached complete consciousness with the pension reforms at IBM. So after a couple of decades plus he left. He's now an evangelical minister in the Midwest, says the job security is better, proving nothing's preordained ;)

[Rekutyn]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

He did his job, got his name on a couple of patents (all owned by IBM) until the great awakening.

Sounds like he had a good run and likely had no problem paying down any potential college debt he incurred prior to getting the job at IBM. For engineers, there are plenty of opportunities around the world for companies willing to pay top-dollar. It's a lot easier to get a visa to work in another country with one of these degrees than most others.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I doubt he regrets any of his decisions. If it hadn't of been for the years of working for IBM he probably wouldn't have ever had the money to be able to go into psuedo-retirement as a minister. Again, he's opened up a lot of opportunities with hard work and motivation to succeed.

[Rekutyn]

Re: College Debt 101: Damned if you do, damned if you don't (5min.)

Guys you don't know the half of it. I freakin' LIVE in bloomington.

It was not and still not uncommon to see kids driving around in BMWs and Escalades to go to bars. Its also not uncommon to see perpetual students working food joints while they write their PhD thesis in ancient philosophy or something.
...
I do feel bad for rising tuition and of course there are hard workers there but this place is the "americans are dumb" thread incarnate.

Heh, Ancient Philosophy.

Thanks for backing me up on this one. High Schools need to stop coddling these kids on their way to university and teach them a thing or two about how the real world works and the sort of career/financial expectations they can have once you load up with debt. "If you believe, you can achieve!" -- unless, of course, your field is a dead-end. But no counselor would tell you that, it's not politically correct.