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**santafe2** · July 09, 2009, 11:18 PM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

Originally posted by FRED View Post

Bidder's Name	Quantity	Percentage of Total Allowances	Amount Paid
7 Year Advance Auction Winners
JP Morgan Ventures Energy Corporation	124,984	99.987	$828,643.92
Green Country Energy, LLC	8	0.006	$1,328.00
University of Tampa Environmental Protection Coalition	3	0.002	$600.00
Rutgers Prep School Environmental Club	3	0.002	$495.00
Bates College Environmental Econ A	1	0.001	$40.65
Bates College Environmental Econ B	1	0.001	$32.28
TOTALS	125,000	100%	$831,139.85

		Total Auction Proceeds	$9,548,646.62

:confused:...No support, goofy math or at best, unexplained math??? And this idiot as your spokesman? According to the spreadsheet JPM is almost a million into this deal and we're supposed to think it's ground breaking?

**cindykimlisa** · July 10, 2009, 03:56 PM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

[quote=santafe2;109022]:confused:...No support, goofy math or at best, unexplained math??? And this idiot as your spokesman? According to the spreadsheet JPM is almost a million into this deal and we're supposed to think it's ground breaking?[/quote]

I posted this chart several days ago with much additional backup.

This is from the EPA . Essentially they sell cap and trade grants for 2009 with an option or right to them for 6 years from now. JPM bought 99% of the future grants sold for 6 years from now. If that number is a million today I will bet it will be closer to a billion then, perhaps multiple billions. I also believe this auction took place in March 2009. Check out the EPA website.

If I really understood this I might be tempted to buy JPM stock just based on their potential gain from this transaction in the future.

Cindy

Cindy

**santafe2** · July 11, 2009, 12:48 AM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

Originally posted by cindykimlisa View Post

I posted this chart several days ago with much additional backup.

This is from the EPA . Essentially they sell cap and trade grants for 2009 with an option or right to them for 6 years from now. JPM bought 99% of the future grants sold for 6 years from now. If that number is a million today I will bet it will be closer to a billion then, perhaps multiple billions. I also believe this auction took place in March 2009. Check out the EPA website.

If I really understood this I might be tempted to buy JPM stock just based on their potential gain from this transaction in the future.

Cindy

Can you link me to the original post? And just to be clear, the "this idiot" remark was aimed at Boehner and not at you or your originating post.

I always thought I was a big bank hater until I got to iTulip and found how many people need little to no proof to accuse banks of anything short of killing children for sport.

When you speculate that JPM will turn this small stake into something several thousand times larger and speculate that it's somehow sinister - with no proof, puts you in that camp. I dislike the idea that I should do research to disprove an unfounded idea but I'm curious to know how I see it.

**bill** · July 11, 2009, 10:22 AM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

JPM carbon meter.
http://www.jpmorganclimatecare.com/

**we_are_toast** · July 11, 2009, 01:07 PM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

Originally posted by santafe2 View Post

Can you link me to the original post? And just to be clear, the "this idiot" remark was aimed at Boehner and not at you or your originating post.

I always thought I was a big bank hater until I got to iTulip and found how many people need little to no proof to accuse banks of anything short of killing children for sport.

When you speculate that JPM will turn this small stake into something several thousand times larger and speculate that it's somehow sinister - with no proof, puts you in that camp. I dislike the idea that I should do research to disprove an unfounded idea but I'm curious to know how I see it.

I've been very confused about this thread.

I looked through some of the data at the EPA site and what JPM is doing was done by others in previous years. In fact, early on in the program JPM futures ( a division of JPM) had an account and they bought and sold blocks on a regular basis. If you look at some of the other accounts, you see there are many others speculating in what is basically a futures market and is designed to be so. Of the thousands of accounts, from brokerages, to power companies, to high school science classes, no one seems to be trying to monopolize the market. JPM's holdings seem to be moderate at best, with many large power companies holding substantially more blocks.

The SO2 emmissions being traded here have dropped substantially since the start of the cap and trade program.

I guess I just don't get the implication here.

**cindykimlisa** · July 11, 2009, 01:12 PM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

"When you speculate that JPM will turn this small stake into something several thousand times larger and speculate that it's somehow sinister - with no proof, puts you in that camp. I dislike the idea that I should do research to disprove an unfounded idea but I'm curious to know how I see it."

Where is my speculation that this was sinister: I think it was an outstanding busisness practice - which will pay off in the future.

Howevfer, I don't need proof to speculate on this: Have you noticed that EJ and Fred often speculate w/o proof.

Who asked you to do research to disproove the idea: That says a lot about your own personal anxiety and insecurity.

I was trying to add a helpful comment to people who might be more interested in the facts. Nevertheless if you want to disprove or argue about this then let the game begin.

Also the way you see it is "wrong" I do not hate big banks.

Second, JPMorgan Energy Ventures Corp is the buyer. They have gone bigtime worldwide since 2006. They also have Acid Rain EPA awards as found on the EPA site.

Finally, I would say to you "Grow up!" and act like an adult and quit whining _ not everybody has the agenda to get you or to proove you wrong.

Just for the record: What do you think those 99% cap and trade allowances will be worth to the five largest companies in the United States who need them seven years from now to stay in business. I really wanted to say trillions but I stayed conservative and said billions!

What say Ye?

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Clean Air Markets

You are here: EPA Home
Air & Radiation
Clean Air Markets
Allowance Trading
Annual Auction
2009
2009 EPA Allowance Auction Results

2009 EPA Allowance Auction Results

Origin of Allowances	Spot Auction (First Usable in 2009)	7 Year Advance Auction (First Usable in 2016 )
Allowances Available for Auction
EPA	125,000	125,000
Privately Offered	0	0
Total	125,000	125,000

Allowances	Number of Bids	Number of Bidders	Bid Price
Spot Auction Results
Bid For: 892,343	Successful: 18	Successful: 11	Highest: $500.00
Sold: 125,000	Unsuccessful: 59	Unsuccessful: 11	Clearing: $62.00 (the clearing price is the lowest price at which a successful bid was made)
	Total: 77	Total: 22	Lowest: $0.06
			Weighted Average of Winning Bids: $69.74

Allowances	Number of Bids	Number of Bidders	Bid Price
7 Year Advance Auction Results
Bid For: 624,916	Successful: 6	Successful: 6	Highest: $200.00
Sold: 125,000	Unsuccessful: 19	Unsuccessful: 9	Clearing: $6.63 (the clearing price is the lowest price at which a successful bid was made)
	Total: 25	Total: 15	Lowest: $1.03
			Weighted Average of Winning Bids: $6.65

Bidder's Name	Quantity	Percentage of Total Allowances	Amount Paid
Spot Auction Winners
Ohio Valley Electric Corporation	75,000	60.000	$5,414,500.00
EMMT	48,415	38.732	$3,181,730.00
Macquarie Cook Power Inc.	1,500	1.200	$98,295.00
Denver City Energy Associates	60	0.048	$18,000.00
Acid Rain Retirement Fund	10	0.008	$770.00
Green Country Energy, LLC	8	0.006	$2,928.00
M. M. Latham & Family	3	0.002	$225.00
University of Tampa Environmental Protection Coalition	1	0.001	$500.00
Society of Environmental Engineers	1	0.001	$400.00
Bates College Environmental Econ A	1	0.001	$85.76
Bates College Environmental Econ B	1	0.001	$73.01
TOTALS	125,000	100%	$8,717,506.77

7 Year Advance Auction Winners
Bidder's Name	Quantity	Percentage of Total Allowances	Amount Paid
JP Morgan Ventures Energy Corporation	124,984	99.987	$828,643.92
Green Country Energy, LLC	8	0.006	$1,328.00
University of Tampa Environmental Protection Coalition	3	0.002	$600.00
Rutgers Prep School Environmental Club	3	0.002	$495.00
Bates College Environmental Econ A	1	0.001	$40.65
Bates College Environmental Econ B	1	0.001	$32.28
TOTALS	125,000	100%	$831,139.85

		Total Auction Proceeds	$9,548,646.62

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Last updated on Tuesday, April 14th, 2009.
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/tradin...09summary.html
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**santafe2** · July 12, 2009, 01:50 AM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

Originally posted by cindykimlisa View Post

Howevfer, I don't need proof to speculate on this: Have you noticed that EJ and Fred often speculate w/o proof.

We agree then. You also think you were just speculating.

Who asked you to do research to disproove the idea: That says a lot about your own personal anxiety and insecurity.

I did. The sloppy re-posting of your post with a total 10X the sum of it's parts made the post confusing. This isn't the first time iTulip has done this. Maybe if you and a few others will join they'll have enough money for an editor.

I was trying to add a helpful comment to people who might be more interested in the facts. Nevertheless if you want to disprove or argue about this then let the game begin.

Your repost was helpful. That's all I was asking for. It was so worthwhile I don't even mind the abusive tone.

What this spreadsheet reveals is JPM spending less than $1MM to secure rights in 2016 that are worth about $9MM today. How is that interesting? I'm not asking you to defend it, I'm asking iTulip. I don't get this, it's petty cash. Can someone here make a case for this? Connect the dots?

**FRED** · July 12, 2009, 11:26 AM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

Originally posted by santafe2 View Post

We agree then. You also think you were just speculating.

I did. The sloppy re-posting of your post with a total 10X the sum of it's parts made the post confusing. This isn't the first time iTulip has done this. Maybe if you and a few others will join they'll have enough money for an editor.

Your repost was helpful. That's all I was asking for. It was so worthwhile I don't even mind the abusive tone.

What this spreadsheet reveals is JPM spending less than $1MM to secure rights in 2016 that are worth about $9MM today. How is that interesting? I'm not asking you to defend it, I'm asking iTulip. I don't get this, it's petty cash. Can someone here make a case for this? Connect the dots?

You may have noticed that in our new Internet era there are more spelling and grammatical errors generally in published material. That is because the Internet has increased the volume of material that requires proofreading by ten fold. While tools like grammar checkers and spell checkers help, they do not prevent the occasional calculation error or usage errors such as "lose" versus "loose," both of which are correctly spelled and are often missed by grammar checking software and humans alike as we write and process hundreds of thousands of words of writing over periods of time when only tens of thousands of words were produced previously. This is why you often see version 1, 2, 3, and so on of articles published. The process is not unlike the delivery of software versions 1, 2, 3, and so on. The initial "product" may be rough but gets better over time as we fix errors on the fly, especially for time sensitive material, that is, most of it. Alternatively we could wait until we have found all of the errors but by that time the analysis may be too late to be useful or, in a competitive context, irrelevant. That means we can either deliver perfect material or too late material. As with everything in life, there are trade-offs. We choose to deliver imperfect material when it's still relevant. This may irritate those of our readers who are perfectionist in their own writing, but satisfies those who'd rather see the material sooner than later, and accept the fact that if they come back later errors will be fixed.

Readers are encouraged to report errors if they find them by sending FRED a note. Some members choose to pose corrections in the thread, but as the error was likely noted and in process of change anyway, this results in a post that refers to an error that will have been corrected.

**cindykimlisa** · July 13, 2009, 06:31 PM

Re: Green Energy Bubble?

connecting the dots

For me, Its not about the cash that JPM spent for the 2016 allowances.

Its about the idea that they bought and control 99.9% of them. My intuition tells me they have their act together so well that this is the beginning of an ongoing trend for JPM Energy Ventures Corp. More allowances and more control.

FYI - you may want to do a little research into who JP Morgan actually was and discern how he made gagillions: It was by being smart and being in control.

Below is From Answers.com

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Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Biographies

"John Pierpont Morgan (1837-1913), the most powerful American banker of his time, helped build a credit bridge between Europe and America and financially rescued the United States government twice.

On April 17, 1837, J. P. Morgan was born in Harford, Conn. After 2 years at the University of G�ttingen in Germany, he entered the world of banking and commerce in 1857. In 1895 his firm, a private bank engaging in commercial as well as investment banking, adopted its final name of J. P. Morgan & Company.
Early in the Civil War, Morgan lent money to a man who bought rifles from the Federal government and resold them to it; this is the notorious Hall carbine affair, but there is no evidence that Morgan was other than a creditor. Less than 2 decades later Morgan became instrumental in the periodic reorganization of American railroads, emerging as a decisive factor in railroading. He refinanced bankrupt railroads, acted to stabilize rates, and consolidated competing lines. In addition, to protect individuals who purchased railroad securities from his firm, Morgan placed his own representatives on the railroads' boards of directors.
Financial Rescue of the Government
In 1893 America experienced a major economic downturn which, in conjunction with questionable monetary policies (resulting from pressure from the silver inflationists), put an impossible burden on the U.S. Treasury's gold reserve. President Grover Cleveland's attempts to replenish the gold reserve were ineffective. In 1895 Morgan played the role of central banker, sold government bonds for gold (half obtained abroad through his foreign affiliates), and guaranteed to protect the gold reserve. Though Morgan was charged with profiting exorbitantly and taking advantage of the dire straits of the government, he never revealed the precise amount of his profits, so the validity of such allegations is impossible to assess. His syndicate succeeded temporarily in its objectives; public and private ends harmonized at a price which was probably not excessive, considering the service rendered to the nation.
In 1901 a tremendous conflict opened between James J. Hill and Edward H. Harriman for domination of the railroads west of the Mississippi and in the northern half of the country. Morgan was allied with Hill, and in the course of this contest the price of Northern Pacific stock shares jumped to astronomical heights. The compromise reached was based on pooling all interests in the Northern Securities Company. When this company was dissolved in 1904 as a consequence of successful prosecution under the Sherman Antitrust Act, modern antitrust enforcement had been inaugurated.
Morgan founded the U.S. Steel Corporation in 1901. The culmination of a wave of similar consolidations, it was the largest industrial concern of the time. U.S. Steel never controlled the entire steel industry, and its share of the market has declined steadily.
Solving the Panic of 1907 represents Morgan's highest achievement; never again would private power be vested with so large a public responsibility. When the panic hit, the financial community of New York rallied around Morgan, and the Federal government entrusted its funds to his disposition. He recruited brilliant lieutenants to investigate the resources of the various New York banks and trust companies, determine which were solvent, and act to save them. (There was no central bank, as the Federal Reserve System was created only in 1913 as an after-math to the panic.) Morgan and his cohorts were, for all practical purposes, the central bank.
An Assessment
Morgan was preeminently suited to the world in which he lived. During the years of his power the American economy grew at a prodigious rate. Morgan was one of the "vital few" who made it happen. He was a superb organizer in an economy that was replacing competition with concentration. He chose extremely able associates but reserved the crucial decisions for himself. He earned his economic reward by linking those who needed capital with those who had it to invest, whether in Europe or America. The success of his endeavor actually lessened the investment banker's significance, as enterprises became internally financed and less dependent on external financing."

Although I am speculating, I am confident that JPM is not!

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