JP Morgan in big trouble???

[Rajiv]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

But why do think the average person in the Roman Empire was beautiful?

From the absolutely perfect Roman figurines of course -- I think we are getting a little bit Lake Wobegonized here

where "all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average,"

[Raz]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

How do you find time to post here? You'd be better served ferreting out and drowning witches. In case I'm not being clear, this is the craziest post I've seen by a paid subscriber on iTulip. Seriously, find a psychologist or join AA if that's the issue. Please never assume you can pay a few hundred dollars and earn the right to post this nonsense here.

Thank you for your arrogant and insulting reply. You have saved me from any further effort to inform your ignorant self - even on another forum. Perhaps you should read the New Testament - and some history not authored by God hating pseudo-intellectuals.
As for me I don't plan to cast any more pearls before swine.:mad:

[jtabeb]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

In case an impression communicated itself from my prior critical comments that I am culturally hidebound, my own mind is wide open to other cultures.

I have no "narrow, bigoted thoughts" on the topic of intentional mutilation of society's "criminals". My internal moral compass is clear as a pool of still water. For example, I "know" what is inherently wrong in a judicial system, where the inflicting of such punishments are presented to a wide audience for what is blatantly evident to be a staged spectacle reminiscent of those staged by the ancient Romans for blood sport, or by Medieval societies in lieu of circuses. Here you have many small cues as to what the real venue is.

Instead of a cleanly cutting surgical blade cutting off a limb as the punishment for a "criminal", a short, blunt knife is used - as though expressly to inflict maximum shock to the amputee. This kind of thing has a name written across it's countenance, at the human level.

It is a name I will not mention, but one that I will always, always, always find myself vehemently opposed to from the deepest most visceral feeling in my gut. It is the name of everything that is the opposite of compassion, and it's face is an ugly thing to behold. Anyone who wishes to apologise for it I will always walk past, without any regard. There is the real gutter for you - but it takes a willingness to look at it squarely.

People here want to affect personal or cultural affront at such comments? Maybe suggest that they indicate some subtle attribute such as "cultural bigotry" on my part? Compare meanwhile, what they may portray as their "injured cultural or religious sensibilities" to the shock - shock near to death itself, which such victims endure. One injury is trivial and largely composed of conceits. The other injury is real, leading to a severed limb - and that cry is a cry out for decency from the depths of all human intelligence.

Pick your side, and then live with it.

BTW I agree with your statements in the above, this is a follow-up to your previous post, should have posted under that link. Yes what you see above is injustice, more so because you may See TCNs gutting parts removed, but NO Saudi Nationals.

Genius, I have no bone to pick with factual statements, to "get my feelings hurt" by such things would either make me
A. Dilusional and unable to face reality
And/or
B. In need of thicker skin

As I tell my kids, if someone hurts has hurt your feelings ask yourself if it was because they said something that was "true" or because they were presenting something that is "false as true". If it is the former, I tell them to toughen up. If it is the latter, I tell them to use their intellect to refute the flaws in the other persons representation of factual reality.

So Luke Sorry, but I'm going to have to follow my own advice on this matter.

The fact is Luke, that your "facts" are the same "facts" that I've heard when I learned the history of the Tuskegee Airman. Their unit had the best record in WWII of all pursuit/escourt squadrons.

That "facts" that were presented to discourage the participation of these airmen from flying was all broadly supported in the medical litrature of the time.

Such "facts" as blacks could not tolerated the G forces present in aviation, and that they were not capable of task-managment (think a life or death form of "multitasking") because of their STRUCTURALLY different mental capacities than whites.

These "facts" were all codified and known in the medical community and provided a nice backstop for those with a hidden-agenda to "proove" their case.

No matter how you try to couch your arguments in the cloak of "factual" information and to present a conclusion that broadly pertains to an entire region of the world or group of ethinic peoples or to a religious group, well there is a name for that.


"You know the Poles aren't the brightest folk" = I'm sure there are Poles that aren't smart, but really and truly, how can I claim this a the defining characteristic of the ENTIRE Polish population (my wife's Polish BTW, so she would seem to BUCK this trend as she has a higher IQ than I do and mine ain't bad)

"Irish are beggars" = I'm sure there is at least one beggar that is Irish, can you really apply that to ALL IRISHMENT

"Jews are stingy but smart" = I'm sure there are Stingy Jews and Smart Jews and even some smart, stingy Jews, does that mean that it is correct to classify Jews as "smart and stingy"

"Blacks tend to be lazy and not very productive" = ""... you get the idea

I know what these statements are when I see them. Do you recognize any of these "facts" Luke?

V/R
JT

[c1ue]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

I've said before, and I say again: the relative peaceful coexistence in the United States may just as well be a product of high relative prosperity levels as it may be due to 'freedom and the American Way'.

I also will chime in that characterizing Muslims and Islam as being somehow fundamentally different (worse) than Christians is completely off the mark.

The Bible is the one which says "an eye for an eye" and "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

And if the Bible itself is not sufficient, one only has to look at some of the terrible things done unto others in the Christian era: Crusades, Reformation/anti-Reformation, Inquisition, etc etc.

The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.

It is that religion is an aggregation of authority, hence power, and can be used for all manner of good and evil purposes.

The violence we see coming out of Muslim regions - how much would that exist were these areas more prosperous in everyman terms?

Certainly from a realpolitik viewpoint, having your disaffected, disenfranchised, and angry youth redirect energies toward external foes is a much better proposition than having these same individual direct their attention towards wondering why a few families still control (and retain) all the vast wealth flowing in to the nation. These young men having nothing to lose but their lives only ratchets up the maximum pain levels.

Cui Bono? is a good rule.

[Raz]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

I really don't see how such a world was "cruel". The average person in the Roman Empire was strong, independent, and beautiful.

The deformed, weak, and helpless should be anomolies, the fate of whom is ultimately irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization. Today, the compassion you praise has created a race of deformed, weak, and pathetic creatures. I tour the United States, and the average American today looks more like a monster than a man.

A proud Roman of 2,000 years ago would undoubtedly weep for what has become of their culture.

So the fate of the sick, weak, and helpless is irrelevant to the success or failure of a civilization? I suppose a "successful" civilization is one with all the compassion of a beehive.

I fail to see what your post has to do with my attempt to show that all the worlds evils do not emminate from religion.

IF anyone has enough interest to post a question for me on Rant and Rave I will gladly offer facts and receive insults there, BUT NOT HERE. IT isn't fair to highjack someone elses forum topic.

[cjppjc]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

Wow. Close this thread.


JPM remember?

[jtabeb]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.



I would say that there is Fundamental evil, and you have to fight it in what ever way you can, easier to do as an individual because you have can do it on a case by case basis.It is much harder to do as a nation because in any battle there is allways collateral damage and the innocent will pay as much as the guilty. I think that evil is observable and that you can have groups working collectively for evil purposes. But if you don't know why people or groups are acting in that way, you only have a small part of the picture.

We have morals and values that we share in this country, it's part of what makes us Americans. We as Americans sometimes confuse Morals and Values to counfound the meaning of both.



When we talk about "moral relativism" we attack values, in an attempt to have the moral high ground, but we fail and here's why.

If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that is stealing. For sure right?
If I'm Bernie Madoff and I steal 50 Billion because I'm a greedy pig, that is stealing too, right?

So the two must be the same right?

Wrong! But we are told that the two are the SAME, they are both stealing.

What this FAILS to address is what we VALUE as a society.

We value family and feel compassion for the less fortunate, and ask why could you not afford to buy food. All legitimate from a value perspective.

Similarly, we do not value Greed (so we say) and we especially consider a crime more harshly the greater the number of victems of a paticular crime and the more those people were hurt.

In the financial crisis I think we will again be faced with calls to avoid "moral retativism" and to IGNORE what we value as a society. We can't let that happen again.

[santafe2]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

As for me I don't plan to cast any more pearls before swine.:mad:

For that, we'll all be thankful.

[charliebrown]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

as a partially/professionally trained theologian (dropped out because of family health problems) GRG5 is "Closer to the kingdom of God" than he realizes.

Maybe after the our god of money dies and cannot be ressurrected, we will seek things that have an eternal purpose. Whether you believe in a higher power, or just the secular ideal of the betterment of man kind.

[charliebrown]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

as a partially/professionally trained theologian (dropped out because of family health problems) GRG5 is "Closer to the kingdom of God" than he realizes.

Maybe after the our god of money dies and cannot be ressurrected, we will seek things that have an eternal purpose. Whether you believe in a higher power, or just the secular ideal of the betterment of man kind.

[charliebrown]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

even though i am not santafe2's keeper, i apologize for this very cutting remark. keep the faith my friend. I move this post get back to JPM failure. I have a checking account, there, and I also agree that if JPM goes beneath the waves, then that could be the end of the banking system. Maybe that would be good, maybe we really need that cleansing breath so we can move on.

[Raz]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

The point isn't that religion itself, or any religion in particular, is fundamentally evil.



I would say that there is Fundamental evil, and you have to fight it in what ever way you can, easier to do as an individual because you have can do it on a case by case basis.It is much harder to do as a nation because in any battle there is allways collateral damage and the innocent will pay as much as the guilty. I think that evil is observable and that you can have groups working collectively for evil purposes. But if you don't know why people or groups are acting in that way, you only have a small part of the picture.

We have morals and values that we share in this country, it's part of what makes us Americans. We as Americans sometimes confuse Morals and Values to counfound the meaning of both.



When we talk about "moral relativism" we attack values, in an attempt to have the moral high ground, but we fail and here's why.

If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, that is stealing. For sure right?
If I'm Bernie Madoff and I steal 50 Billion because I'm a greedy pig, that is stealing too, right?

So the two must be the same right?

Wrong! But we are told that the two are the SAME, they are both stealing.

What this FAILS to address is what we VALUE as a society.

We value family and feel compassion for the less fortunate, and ask why could you not afford to buy food. All legitimate from a value perspective.

Similarly, we do not value Greed (so we say) and we especially consider a crime more harshly the greater the number of victems of a paticular crime and the more those people were hurt.

In the financial crisis I think we will again be faced with calls to avoid "moral retativism" and to IGNORE what we value as a society. We can't let that happen again.

jtabeb,

Did you mean "calls to embrace moral relativism? I thought your post was excellent but I'm somewhat confused. Stealing IS stealing and can never be condoned under the law - even to feed one's family. But you are certainly correct that to apply the law identically in the hypothetical case mentioned by you would be a great denial of justice. Acts commited out of despair and desperation may be legally wrong yet to some limited degree the same could be morally justifiable. I suspect that is what you meant, and if so, then count me in complete agreement.

[FRED]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

This is a finance and economics site and has been for over ten years. Politics cannot be avoided because the economy is political, but the conduct of political discussion will be polite and respectful.

Race and religion is simply too divisive to be argued here. Members are too likely to step on each other's toes, so we don't, except in Rant and Rave where anything goes, except what I deem to be really bad karma.

A thread about JP Morgan is a thread about JP Morgan. If a thread is hijacked into a discussion of religion, I or another moderator will either have to move it to Rant and Rave or delete the posts that have to do with religion. In this case this thread goes to Rant and Rave. Besides, there's already a thread on this JP Morgan and Citigroup to be nationalized.

[Wild Style]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

To discuss this very subject, i.e, the structure or model of Western versus Eastern finance, the Fifth World Islamic Economic Forum is meeting currently in Jakarta, Indonesia.

So, maybe you would rather use the Islamic model of finance where the lender takes a share of the debtor's business or property, instead of compound interest? Is that more "touchy-feely" to you?

Hopefully, you will be a good slave because the Islamic paradigm is about slavery and obedience to Sharia Law, and part of Sharia Law deals with finance.

Run afoul of Sharia Law, and you may be whipped or worse. Sometimes, they chop your arm or head off. "Peace and love." Enjoy!

By the way, welcome to itulip.

Can you show us from Islamic sources were this is indeed the case in relation to Islamic finance.

[jtabeb]

Re: JP Morgan in big trouble???

jtabeb,

Did you mean "calls to embrace moral relativism? I thought your post was excellent but I'm somewhat confused. Stealing IS stealing and can never be condoned under the law - even to feed one's family. But you are certainly correct that to apply the law identically in the hypothetical case mentioned by you would be a great denial of justice. Acts commited out of despair and desperation may be legally wrong yet to some limited degree the same could be morally justifiable. I suspect that is what you meant, and if so, then count me in complete agreement.

NO I AM not calling for MORE moral relativism. But I do not want to sacrifice our values either and we as a society have had a problem with Turning a Value judgment into a moral judgment.

(Stealing is stealing, but YOU punish madoff differently, more harshly, than you punish the guy who stole bread to feed his family because the HARM inflicted and the number of people harmed is VASTLY different.)

A moral code tells us what is right and wrong.
Values allow us to determine a just remedy for an offense based on who/how many were harmed and how much harm was inflicted.

That is my point.