Trump to win?

[Woodsman]

Re: Trump to win?

J.D. Vance is a close personal friend of mine. He officiated my wedding. Everything I know about him leads me to believe he is a genuinely good person...

Well you just sold one more book for your buddy J.D. Give him my best, one Scots-Irish whose kin hail from Trimble County to another. Now I wouldn't call Judge Robert's people hillbillies; at least not to any Trimble's face. But we're neighbors just the same and the same land we trod together is the same land we bury our own under and that can count for a lot.

I hate that so many Americans seem to have forgotten this, but we did it to ourselves and we can undo it. There's time, even if not enough for us.

[DSpencer]

Re: Trump to win?

Well you just sold one more book for your buddy J.D. Give him my best, one Scots-Irish whose kin hail from Trimble County to another. Now I wouldn't call Judge Robert's people hillbillies; at least not to any Trimble's face. But we're neighbors just the same and the same land we trod together is the same land we bury our own under and that can count for a lot.

I hate that so many Americans seem to have forgotten this, but we did it to ourselves and we can undo it. There's time, even if not enough for us.

Glad to hear it, although that was not my intention. I think your last line is echoed in the book. Sure there's reasons for why people are angry and desperate for someone to save them and if the government wants to help they should try to understand those reasons, but at the end of the day there's more we can do for ourselves than politicians can do for us.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Trump to win?

Sure there's reasons for why people are angry and desperate for someone to save them and if the government wants to help they should try to understand those reasons, but at the end of the day there's more we can do for ourselves than politicians can do for us.

Hey, DSpencer, you know what I think might be good/interesting for you? Come up to New England some time and try a town meeting. Just, if you're ever on vacation this way, see if you can fit in an hour or so at some small town to where they're doing it to check out how it works. Yeah, you can see on Youtube, but I don't think it's quite the same.

I mean, it's direct democracy and deliberative too. All in action. You want a new fire truck? Make the case. The people are the legislature. There are no representatives, save someone you slecte to run the gavel or whatever. Nobody has more power or more votes than anybody else. Everything gets debated. Everything gets voted on.

Anyways, this is how I grew up in America. And I think it's a huge reason why we--kind of as a region--see the world so much differently than the rest of the country.

I just noticed that when you write about "the government" it's always as "them." Like some great other. Like a mysterious entity forced upon you from a foreign place.

And I think a lot of the US thinks that way.

When you get a chance to try the town meeting way of running local government, something else becomes immediately apparent though...

There is no "them."
There is only "us."
We are the government.

I think the size difference, both in land area and in population, between New England states and towns (counties don't matter or exist), and other parts of the US feeds into this split too. I mean, if you live in Vermont, and you want to see your Senator, the most you'd have to do is check a calendar and maybe drive an hour or two to the farmers' market he'll be at. In Rhode Island, it'd be an hour max until you're drinking beer with your Senator. Maybe an hour and a half in Connecticut if you drew your cards poorly, before you were eating a pancake breakfast at a folding table in the back of a Salvation Army...

I mean, it's just much more obvious that "the government" isn't some far off "them."

Around these parts, if the "government" wants to help, that means "we" want to help, because the government doesn't do nothing we don't tell it to. That's the value of checking out a town meeting.

It's not an activity done to people. It's an activity people participate in.

What we can do for ourselves and what politicians can do for us are one in the same.

At least that's the civic mindset I grew up with. I think it's quite different in other parts of the US, though.

[DSpencer]

Re: Trump to win?

Hey, DSpencer, you know what I think might be good/interesting for you? Come up to New England some time and try a town meeting. Just, if you're ever on vacation this way, see if you can fit in an hour or so at some small town to where they're doing it to check out how it works. Yeah, you can see on Youtube, but I don't think it's quite the same.

I mean, it's direct democracy and deliberative too. All in action. You want a new fire truck? Make the case. The people are the legislature. There are no representatives, save someone you slecte to run the gavel or whatever. Nobody has more power or more votes than anybody else. Everything gets debated. Everything gets voted on.

Anyways, this is how I grew up in America. And I think it's a huge reason why we--kind of as a region--see the world so much differently than the rest of the country.

I just noticed that when you write about "the government" it's always as "them." Like some great other. Like a mysterious entity forced upon you from a foreign place.

And I think a lot of the US thinks that way.

When you get a chance to try the town meeting way of running local government, something else becomes immediately apparent though...

There is no "them."
There is only "us."
We are the government.

I think the size difference, both in land area and in population, between New England states and towns (counties don't matter or exist), and other parts of the US feeds into this split too. I mean, if you live in Vermont, and you want to see your Senator, the most you'd have to do is check a calendar and maybe drive an hour or two to the farmers' market he'll be at. In Rhode Island, it'd be an hour max until you're drinking beer with your Senator. Maybe an hour and a half in Connecticut if you drew your cards poorly, before you were eating a pancake breakfast at a folding table in the back of a Salvation Army...

I mean, it's just much more obvious that "the government" isn't some far off "them."

Around these parts, if the "government" wants to help, that means "we" want to help, because the government doesn't do nothing we don't tell it to. That's the value of checking out a town meeting.

It's not an activity done to people. It's an activity people participate in.

What we can do for ourselves and what politicians can do for us are one in the same.

At least that's the civic mindset I grew up with. I think it's quite different in other parts of the US, though.

Interesting perspective. Honestly, I've never really considered that other people were less likely to share the "us" vs "them" mentality. Of course, if I have to drive to New England to see what direct democracy looks like for other people, I'm not sure that will make me feel more empowered here. I can drive to Columbus in about an hour, but there's almost 2 million people in the metro area. I doubt I could find my Senator.

The main problem is what's the point? My state and local taxes combined are a small fraction of federal taxes and waste less of the money anyway. My county doesn't have an NSA to spy on me (or so I think). Ohio doesn't carpet bomb and drone strike. We have no say in immigration.

I've often heard that local government impacts your life more than the federal government. I think an Ohioan named Roscoe Filburn proved that wrong a long time ago when the federal government decided they could control whether you grew food on your own property for your own consumption. Even when the states ostensibly control something like the legal drinking age, the federal government pulls the strings through highway funding cuts. If the feds don't like that your state legalized marijuana, they can still come bust people.

I've never understood why the Democratic party doesn't support returning power to the states/local governments so that citizens could experience a more direct democracy. This election seems to prove they don't care about real democracy in the first place. The party picked Hillary before anyone cast a vote.

Anyway, I didn't intend on this being a rant. And I notice now upon reading this that I continue to use "them" without even thinking about it. When 95% of the power is held by elected officials and the ones you vote for are never elected, it's pretty easy to feel disenfranchised. It would be an interesting to know: Have I ever cast the deciding vote on anything in my entire life? My guess is no.

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

Archie Bunker in a coal mine. This idiot...so dumb ...Darwin award.

You make the author's point so elegantly, SF2. Normally, I'd grab my gut and laugh but now I don't think it's so funny anymore.

+2
but santa is just like all the rest of the demorat apologists:
the most insulting, idiotlogically-blinded, ignorantly-condescending bunch of hippycritters that eye have EVER witnessed!

and there's blood in the water now:

IRS Launches Investigation Of Clinton Foundation

Lawmakers charged the Clinton Foundation is a “lawless ‘pay-to-play’ enterprise that has been operating under a cloak of philanthropy for years and should be investigated.”

• Jul 27, 2016 11:51 AM

esp since they've gone and pissed off putin:

Kremlin Slams Accusations Of Democratic Party Hack As "Made-Up Horror Stories"

On Wednesday the Kremlin reiterated Russia's position when it dismissed allegations Russia had hacked Democratic Party emails as "made up horror stories" dreamt up by U.S. politicians, saying it never interfered in other countries' election campaigns.

• Jul 27, 2016 9:58 AM

never mind this:

Assange: "A Lot More Material" Will Be Released

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange said Tuesday his whistleblowing website might release "a lot more material" relevant to the US electoral campaign. Assange was speaking in a CNN interview following the release of nearly 20,000 emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee by suspected Russian hackers.

• Jul 27, 2016 4:38 AM

heheheheheh!!!

OH YEAAHHHGH BAYBEE
now we see why the admin was so worked-up about 'the non-news outfits'
and they cant even dump on foxnews anymore...

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

and The HITS just keep on comin:

FelonsVotesMatter (To Hillary) - Clinton's Election Fate In Virginia Lies With 200,000 Unregistered Offenders

Terry McAuliffe, Governor of Virginia and long-time Clinton confidant, vowed to do whatever necessary to elect Hillary Clinton President...even if it means registering each of the 200,000 felons in the state of Virginia to vote individually. She did help him win the Governor seat...we guess it's kind of the least he could do.

• Jul 26, 2016 11:10 PM

BINGO/paydirt:

Trump: "I Hope Russia Has All 33,000 Emails That Hillary Deleted"

In yet another statement that is certain to spark outrage among Democrats, moments ago Donald Trump said he hopes that Russian hackers accused of breaching the DNC have obtained the tens of thousands of emails that Hillary Clinton deleted from her private email server. "If they hacked, they probably have her 33,000 emails. I hope they do," Trump told reporters on Wednesday at a press conference at his Miami-area hotel.

• Jul 27, 2016 11:35 AM

here's a beaut:

One Reader's Reaction To Bill Clinton's Speech: "A Harlequin Romance Novel"

Donald Trump, perhaps unsurprisingly, was among the first to criticize former President Bill Clinton's speech at the Democratic National Convention last night, saying he left out "the most interesting chapter." As one eloquent Zero Hedge reader pinpointed: "That anyone still sees Bill’s performance art as sincere is proof of the gullibility of the Democratic electorate. He ‘admires and respects’ Hillary, yet he schtupped anything without a Y chromosome in the Oval Office."

• Jul 27, 2016 3:55 PM

must say that ole wild bill really does still have 'it' tho...
esp after last nights performance.

dont recall ever seeing/hearing such a silver-tongued devil quite this 'good'

too bad its all pure spin, lapped up and embellished by his adoring DOUCHEBAGS OF THE LAMERSTREAM MEDIA WHORE BRIGADE

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

Clinton, Kaine flipflopping on issues. And I heard only Republicans are the Keystone copsYeah, I know Trump flip flops too, but I expect better of the.................... what?!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/07/27/clinton-kaine-face-flip-flop-questions-after-nomination.html

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

my guess would be their 'focus group discussion' participants are beginning to crack...

Peak Hubris

“I don’t understand people... who talk about us as being in decline, and who act as though we are not yet the greatest country that has ever been on the face of the Earth for all of history!” - Hillary Rodham Clinton, 25 July 2016

• Jul 26, 2016 4:25 PM

well hitlery, we were certainly doing a lot better, prior to you+bills reign of terror back in the 90's: where you set the stage for the econ meltdown of 2000-01, with NAFTA and glass-steagall repeal, thus giving your primary benefactors the key to the US Treasury, never mind letting obama... uhhh... i mean.. osama go back then - even AFTER his buddies blew up - or tried to blow up the WTC the first phreakin time

and YOU CLOWNS LET HIM GO!

[LazyBoy]

Re: Trump to win?

Hey, DSpencer, you know what I think might be good/interesting for you? Come up to New England some time and try a town meeting. Just, if you're ever on vacation this way, see if you can fit in an hour or so at some small town to where they're doing it to check out how it works. Yeah, you can see on Youtube, but I don't think it's quite the same.

I mean, it's direct democracy and deliberative too. All in action. You want a new fire truck? Make the case. The people are the legislature. There are no representatives, save someone you slecte to run the gavel or whatever. Nobody has more power or more votes than anybody else. Everything gets debated. Everything gets voted on.

...

I mean, if you live in Vermont, and you want to see your Senator, the most you'd have to do is check a calendar and maybe drive an hour or two to the farmers' market he'll be at. In Rhode Island, ...

Sounds great. What percentage of the voting-age population participates in the "direct democracy" and what percentage is completely disconnected?

[lektrode]

Re: Trump to win?

hadnt got round to commenting oin this (since the fiasco in philly is providing just so much entertainment)

but RIGHT ON to dc's obs:

...you know what I think might be good/interesting for you? Come up to New England some time and try a town meeting. Just, if you're ever on vacation this way, see if you can fit in an hour or so at some small town to where they're doing it to check out how it works. Yeah, you can see on Youtube, but I don't think it's quite the same.

I mean, it's direct democracy and deliberative too. All in action. You want a new fire truck? Make the case. The people are the legislature. There are no representatives, save someone you slecte to run the gavel or whatever. Nobody has more power or more votes than anybody else. Everything gets debated. Everything gets voted on.

Anyways, this is how I grew up in America. And I think it's a huge reason why we--kind of as a region--see the world so much differently than the rest of the country.....
...
At least that's the civic mindset I grew up with. I think it's quite different in other parts of the US, though.

PRECISELY!
its also why NH - despite or make that INSPITE of the best efforts of clinton's supporters - after going on 400 years - STILL with NO SALES TAX, NO INCOME TAX
and STILL NO MANDATORY SEATBELT LAW

with its ALL-volunteer legislature and where they have a single 30day leg session, who are paid $100/year + mileage expense for their drives to the capitol and ONLY when its in-sesh

and when its all done?
THEY GO BACK TO WORK at their 'other jobs' just LIKE THE REST OF US!!!

which all adds up to there being NO MONEY IN BEING A POLITICAL APARATCHIK in The LIVE FREE OR DIE state

and why NH is STILL The Gold Standard on how The US.gov SHOULD function.

Sounds great. What percentage of the voting-age population participates in the "direct democracy" and what percentage is completely disconnected?

i'll let dc answer that one, but my guess would be those that sit home - as mike moore mentioned the other day - playing with their xboxes and playstations, sending snap-n-chats on their 'smartphones'

[dcarrigg]

Re: Trump to win?

Sounds great. What percentage of the voting-age population participates in the "direct democracy" and what percentage is completely disconnected?

I don't know of many good studies on that. I'm guessing it will vary greatly from town to town. You need a minimum number for it to count. So in Maine, for example, I believe you need to hit at least 10% of the number of people who cast votes in the last governor election to strike quorum.

This article from last year in Vermont said the maximum was the town of Rutland (pop 17,000+) where 56% of registered voters showed up and participated, and the minimum was Morristown Vermont (pop 5,000+), where only 4% came out. They say the average was 20%-30%.

The smaller the town, the higher the participation rate generally, in my experience. But what really makes the difference is the issues on the docket. If there's nothing exciting, and you don't expect a lot exciting, it's hard to get people worked up. A lot of times you get people cycling in and out as things concern/interest them. So you may have really low attendance for a lot of meetings where road repairs and police hirings or something are discussed, but then, when it comes to shutting and old school down and building a new one (as recently happened with us), everyone comes out of the woodwork, and you'll fill the entire high school basketball court and stands easily.

Then there are people who just let it ride and never bother to show up. That's their right too. And there are people who have a hard time getting there. That is a legitimate problem.

But I'd say people who don't participate usually fall into 4 categories generally: 1) the young and childless, 2) the old and disabled, 3) the wealthy and aloof who use private schools and services for everything and just don't care, and 4) the actually disconnected--either old swampers at the edge of town who tend not to come in, or even good chunks of the struggling lower classes.

Like I said, it's not perfect.

But if you care and want to get involved, you can, directly and easily. Growing up, we'd have to go to meetings for school and write reports on what happened. And the old scouts would make us attend and write reports too. And we'd see how it affected our own little activities and their budgets and everything at a small scale. And we'd learn and watch how things got done. Public schools would do this standard. So it's not as if anyone being brought up in town--except for maybe the well-to-do private school kids--should be ignorant of what it is, how it works, and what goes on there. And of course, being direct democracy, and heart-strings and theatrics being what they are, pulling the kids into the room when a movement's afoot to take their football team away or something is a common enough tactic.

But I even think that is good. Make neighbors look each other in the eye and say, "I want to tax you $X for $Y," or "I'm not paying for you any more kid!" or whatever kind of makes the whole process, well, not less tense, but often more civil.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Trump to win?

The system is rigged at national, state, and county levels. Always has been, always will be. The people with more dough and more info dominate. I went to a local election board meeting while I was back in the states. NC is in the national news for openly screwing voters. This meeting was about stopping voting on campus and making the 4000 people who voted there the last time drive or find rides out of town to a place that has 30 parking spaces instead of 800. 46 people signed up to speak, 2 minute limit. About ten would have made good youtube video’s for political science classes in middle or high school. Tempers flared. There were cops at the back. It was 9 to 1 “It ain’t broke, don’t fix it, just let us vote.” The 9 lost. The 1 won. Sad.

[DSpencer]

Re: Trump to win?

Sounds great. What percentage of the voting-age population participates in the "direct democracy" and what percentage is completely disconnected?

To be fair, if there are fewer people that actually bother to show up, that just means your vote counts for much more if you do.

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

"Why did Hillary’s State Department urge U.S. investors to fund Russian research for military uses?"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-clin...ons-1469997195

http://www.g-a-i.org/u/2016/07/Report-Skolkvovo-.pdf

So much for only Trump accused of being cozy with the Russians. Clinton's actions speak much thank misinterpretations of what Trumps words mean.

[vt]

Re: Trump to win?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...uthor-explains

[jk]

Re: Trump to win?

http://nyti.ms/2b2UjMV