Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Anytime anyone mixes up the Soviet Union and Russia I know they are basically ignorant.

I'll ignore the ad hominem for the moment while I point out that foriegn policy is driven by mostly by geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union and Russia occupy the same geography (plus or minus a few Republics), therefore they must pursue a similar foriegn policy, over the long run.

This is possible but the situation then and now is different. Today, China is going to be the largest market (if not already the largest market) and growing at double digit, might even catch up with the EU + US combined. I've not even covered other countries that will adopt a neutral stance like India, Brazil, South Africa, etc. And in the meantime, the US and NATO are stuck in fighting with Islamic extremists that can't die.

With so many emerging powers, the situation today is whichever power goes into an outright war eventually loses as we have seen from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukraine. Your loss is my gain.

Russian tanks got slaughtered in urban situations in Chechnya. A lot of this was poor employment, but yes, urban warfare is not a main strength of armor. Doubt the rain would have much effect once in the city but in the countryside it can. But Russia invading Ukraine is not the same as Germany invading Soviet Union in 1941. Distances involved and the infrastructure involved are vastly different. General Mud will not save anyone.

I wonder if the troops and the rebels are equipped for winter battle. I read that the Germans didn't.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

This is possible but the situation then and now is different. Today, China is going to be the largest market (if not already the largest market) and growing at double digit, might even catch up with the EU + US combined. I've not even covered other countries that will adopt a neutral stance like India, Brazil, South Africa, etc. And in the meantime, the US and NATO are stuck in fighting with Islamic extremists that can't die.

With so many emerging powers, the situation today is whichever power goes into an outright war eventually loses as we have seen from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukraine. Your loss is my gain.




I wonder if the troops and the rebels are equipped for winter battle. I read that the Germans didn't.

China in all of its awesomeness also has a problem with violent Islamist extremists.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20074722/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-crisis...-china-1461384

I wonder who really benefits from all from the chaos in the Euraison Heartland? Those who live closest to it?

The Urkanians and the Russians are fighting on the own turf, by the way, so I don't think they will neglect winter kit.

[Fox]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Ok, unless attacks on WWII phantom tanks is normal news, can we now send this thread to conspiracy or better still, paranomia, if there's one?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukrai...voy-1408201146

Ukraine Plays Down Significance of Destruction of Russian Military Convoy

umm, it's not a conspiracy theory if it's actually being reported by the mainstream media and claimed by leaders of state. However does the mainstream media or leaders of state have a conspiracy? Well that's for a different thread.

However from your article:

No photographs have surfaced of the aftermath of the attack, which Russia's Defense Ministry dismissed on Friday as "some kind of fantasy." The claim, marking the most direct and publicized military clash between Russia and Ukraine since the conflict began

I think Mike Sheddock hits the nail on the head here:
Let's Play "Telephone"!

In the game of Telephone, someone, typically sitting around the campfire, whispers a phrase to the next person who in turn whispers the phrase to the next person until the message is passed to the final person who reports what he heard.

The Ukraine military think that down playing this lends it credibility? This is the big smoking gun they've been wanting to unite the world against Russia. The fact that no proof is given and they are actually trying to sweep it under the rug shows that Mike, and Russia's Defense Ministry, is right; this is a fantasy.

So there is a third option I can add to my list:
C) Nothing actually happened and this is a become a huge clusterf*ck brought on by incompetent leaders and reporters.

And to think, they've actually managed to drag Markel and Hollande into this fiasco. Lots of faces with lots of eggs to go around. Couldn't happen to a better crowd actually.

Too bad innocent people are still being bombed and shelled while all these A$$hats play school yard politics.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

I'll ignore the ad hominem for the moment while I point out that foriegn policy is driven by mostly by geopolitical interests. The Soviet Union and Russia occupy the same geography (plus or minus a few Republics), therefore they must pursue a similar foriegn policy, over the long run.

Its not ad hominem. To confuse the USSR with Russia is a fundamental error, and you cannot know anything about the subject. Your latter comment does not demonstrate that you have spent much time in the study of empires. They can be very unstable when the "dominant majority" is outnumbered by either by its vassals or when there is a large rival to the dominant majority as in the case of the Persians vs the Medes or Hungarians vs the Austrians . The Soviet union had more than a hundred different ethnicities. Russia looks completely different to me. The return of the Orthodox church, nostalgia of the Russian empire, Russian national identity etc... If anything its compatible to China that just culturally absorbed its conquerors which was what occurred with the Soviet empire.

Its ironic. Russians suffer a coup , become dominated by the Soviet polyglot empire , only to receive the blame for their own captivity. Now they have to fight the same ethnicities again on their borders as hostile proxies of the West much like the British did to the US with the Native American populations. That is why we had our own "Stalin" known as Andrew Jackson who shipped the Indians to "safer" pastures. When was the last time an honest American ever noticed that comparison? How are the Cherokee any different than deportations to Siberia? The early Unities States is eerily similar to the brutal Eurasian solutions until the US could become sanctimoniously isolated like its British brethren on their island(Britain also be quite brutal before it was consolidated) .

And how could this happen to Russia? How was it invaded from within its own empire?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/41...ation-britain#

The Muslim population of Britain topped 3.3 million by the end of 2013 to become around 5.2% of the overall population of 63 million, according to figures extrapolated from a recent study on the growth of the Muslim population in Europe.

This is how.


And to have say, Latvians complain about the Soviet Union?

http://latvianhistory.com/tag/latvian-riflemen/

The reason why the Latvian Red Rifleman is sometimes called the core of the Red Army and the rescuers of communist revolution was their great discipline and will power. The Red Army units were often unorganized and cowardly. The Soviet commanders lacked talent. So the Soviet leadership sent Latvians to the most troublesome spots of the front where other Red Army units could not handle.

One doesn't see the Latvians taking any heat for the communist revolution . In fact one might say they have done a fine job blaming their victims.

Is this not a fascinating example of what Gibbon warned about.

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap5.htm

THE power of the sword is more sensibly felt in an extensive monarchy than in a small community. It has been calculated by the ablest politicians, that no state, without being soon exhausted, can maintain above the hundredth part of its members in arms and idleness. But although this relative proportion may be uniform, the influence of the army over the rest of the society will vary according to the degree of its positive strength. The advantages of military science and discipline cannot be exerted, unless a proper number of soldiers are united into one body, and actuated by one soul. With a handful of men, such an union would be ineffectual; with an unwieldy hosts it would be impracticable; and the powers of the machine would be alike destroyed by the extreme minuteness, or the excessive weight, of its springs. To illustrate this observation we need only reflect, that there is no superiority of natural strength, artificial weapons, or acquired skill, which could enable one man to keep in constant subjection one hundred of his fellow creatures: the tyrant of a single town, or a small district, would soon discover that an hundred armed followers were a weak defence against ten thousand peasants or citizens; but an hundred thousand well disciplined soldiers will command, with despotic sway, ten millions of subjects; and a body of ten or fifteen thousand guards will strike terror into the most numerous populace that ever crowded the streets of an immense capital.

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Its not ad hominem. To confuse the USSR with Russia is a fundamental error, and you cannot know anything about the subject. Your latter comment does not demonstrate that you have spent much time in the study of empires. They can be very unstable when the "dominant majority" is outnumbered by either by its vassals or when there is a large rival to the dominant majority as in the case of the Persians vs the Medes or Hungarians vs the Austrians . The Soviet union had more than a hundred different ethnicities. Russia looks completely different to me. The return of the Orthodox church, nostalgia of the Russian empire, Russian national identity etc... If anything its compatible to China that just culturally absorbed its conquerors which was what occurred with the Soviet empire.

Its ironic. Russians suffer a coup , become dominated by the Soviet polyglot empire , only to receive the blame for their own captivity. Now they have to fight the same ethnicities again on their borders as hostile proxies of the West much like the British did to the US with the Native American populations. That is why we had our own "Stalin" known as Andrew Jackson who shipped the Indians to "safer" pastures. When was the last time an honest American ever noticed that comparison? How are the Cherokee any different than deportations to Siberia? The early Unities States is eerily similar to the brutal Eurasian solutions until the US could become sanctimoniously isolated like its British brethren on their island(Britain also be quite brutal before it was consolidated) .

And how could this happen to Russia? How was it invaded from within its own empire?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/41...ation-britain#

The Muslim population of Britain topped 3.3 million by the end of 2013 to become around 5.2% of the overall population of 63 million, according to figures extrapolated from a recent study on the growth of the Muslim population in Europe.

This is how.


And to have say, Latvians complain about the Soviet Union?

http://latvianhistory.com/tag/latvian-riflemen/

The reason why the Latvian Red Rifleman is sometimes called the core of the Red Army and the rescuers of communist revolution was their great discipline and will power. The Red Army units were often unorganized and cowardly. The Soviet commanders lacked talent. So the Soviet leadership sent Latvians to the most troublesome spots of the front where other Red Army units could not handle.

One doesn't see the Latvians taking any heat for the communist revolution . In fact one might say they have done a fine job blaming their victims.

Is this not a fascinating example of what Gibbon warned about.

http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap5.htm

THE power of the sword is more sensibly felt in an extensive monarchy than in a small community. It has been calculated by the ablest politicians, that no state, without being soon exhausted, can maintain above the hundredth part of its members in arms and idleness. But although this relative proportion may be uniform, the influence of the army over the rest of the society will vary according to the degree of its positive strength. The advantages of military science and discipline cannot be exerted, unless a proper number of soldiers are united into one body, and actuated by one soul. With a handful of men, such an union would be ineffectual; with an unwieldy hosts it would be impracticable; and the powers of the machine would be alike destroyed by the extreme minuteness, or the excessive weight, of its springs. To illustrate this observation we need only reflect, that there is no superiority of natural strength, artificial weapons, or acquired skill, which could enable one man to keep in constant subjection one hundred of his fellow creatures: the tyrant of a single town, or a small district, would soon discover that an hundred armed followers were a weak defence against ten thousand peasants or citizens; but an hundred thousand well disciplined soldiers will command, with despotic sway, ten millions of subjects; and a body of ten or fifteen thousand guards will strike terror into the most numerous populace that ever crowded the streets of an immense capital.

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Thanks for all the fun facts but the point I'm trying to make is that Russia and the Soviet Union share a lot of the same foriegn policy objectives because they occupy a lot of the same space. For example, both countries need a warm water port. I don't think this is an original thought and it should not be very controversial.

[photon555]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

What's really important here, in an economic sense, is that armaments were deployed, and/or destroyed, and demand was stimulated. Certainly the demand for information was stimulated, and numerous advertisements were sold because of just this one incident, whether it happened or not. Politicians and political parties don't lose elections because of a minor military fiasco, but because "Joe Sixpack has lost his economic wherewithal to purchase his namesake."
What's important in a strategic economic sense is that the FIRE/MIC/TPTB group of non-conspiring moneyed interests have a war, or at least some dependable, despicable enemies so that they have a hope of getting that supplemental defense bill passed, and those foreign aid (military armaments) bills passed as well. It's all about the economy, and the stimulation thereof, and by economy I mean the bottom lines of the largest corporations, and the bonuses of the executive officers, and the bankers of course, and the payoffs to the pols and crats; and don't forget the cronies with their hands out. And it's all good for the rest of the loser classes as well; that tricky trickle down wealth effect I mean; just don't go tasting that golden colored liquid beneficence that has been bestowed upon your crown.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Thanks for all the fun facts

Interesting that one who claimed injury at ad hominem argument decides to deliver this patronizing and dismissive comment. Consider us even.

but the point I'm trying to make is that Russia and the Soviet Union share a lot of the same foriegn policy objectives because they occupy a lot of the same space. For example, both countries need a warm water port. I don't think this is an original thought and it should not be very controversial.

What Russia is doing is nothing like either the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. If anything Putin is following Bismarck's unification plan for Germany in making a consolidated and relatively stable nation state. Bismark did it for the same reasons, given that before then the Prussians were nothing but divided pawns of the larger nations. And before then the 100 years war between Britain and France can be described as Britain taking advantage of a divided France. Of course nations hate it when there rivals actually cooperate which was why "nationalism " is bad when they say so....

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

China in all of its awesomeness also has a problem with violent Islamist extremists.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle20074722/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/iraq-crisis...-china-1461384

I wouldn't say that Islam is the root cause - rule number one - don't believe state sanctioned MSM, whichever country.

The relationship between the Han Chinese and Uighur date back more than a thousand years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

There's also another Muslim group, the Hui that had been assimilated into the Han Chinese culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization) that they don't look any different from the Han - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

The Chinese empire expands through sinicization, a cultural assimilation that is not based on religion or even a common language.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

I wouldn't say that Islam is the root cause - rule number one - don't believe state sanctioned MSM, whichever country.

The relationship between the Han Chinese and Uighur date back more than a thousand years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_people

There's also another Muslim group, the Hui that had been assimilated into the Han Chinese culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization) that they don't look any different from the Han - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

The Chinese empire expands through sinicization, a cultural assimilation that is not based on religion or even a common language.

There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?

I agree with this. Since there are so many videos and photos (unlike the claim on this thread), the attacks must be real, but the underlying cause must also be examined.

We live in a world where extremism is now everywhere. I see more in common between the extreme rightists and ISIS than the latter with Islam. Both are financed by behind-the-scene wealthy individuals and countries for political, business and even selfish personal objectives.

But whatever the reason, war is bad for the economy in the long run, even for the winning side there are long term repercussions.

[Shakespear]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Since there are so many videos and photos (unlike the claim on this thread), the attacks must be real, but the underlying cause must also be examined.

I agree with you that "something is going on" and as you say we can NOT be sure why it is so.

There is one thing to notice about this area though, "What is below the ground ?".
http://www.commodityonline.com/news/...7-3-15488.html
but there is more

Xinjiang Province (Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region), is located in Northwest China, with its capital city in Urumqi. Xinjiang Province, hereinafter referred to as Xinjiang, covers over 1,660,000 km², one-sixth of China’s total territory, bordering Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The physiography of Xinjiang is dominated by three economically important basins, the Tarim, Turpan and Junggar, rich in coal and hydrocarbon resources. These basins are framed by mountain chains, with breathtaking scenery; the Altay in the north, the Tianshan in the centre and the Kunlun–Karakorum in the south. The Tianshan (Tian = heaven, Shan = mountains; with peaks reaching in excess of 5000 m a.s.l., Bogdashan, and up to 7439 m a.s.l. in the Pobedy Peak), extends across the centre, geographically separating the Province into two regions, southern and northern Xinjiang, whereas the Aiden Lake depression in the Turpan Basin at 154 m below sea level is the second lowest land on Earth.Apart from coal and hydrocarbons, important mineral resources include deposits of chromium, gold, iron, vanadium, copper, nickel, tungsten, molybdenum, lead and zinc. Resources of industrial minerals are also abundant in Xinjiang. These include deposits of magnesite, fluorite, sulphur, kyanite, salt, kaolin, asbestos, vermiculite, gypsum, graphite, perlite and zeolite. Numerous thermal springs, locally exploited for mineral waters, occur in zones or belts associated with major fault structures along the Altay, South Tianshan and the Kunlunshan. The presence of these hot springs testifies to ongoing hydrothermal activity associated with the tectonic reactivation and uplift of the terranes accreted around the Tarim and the Junggar stable and rigid blocks. This tectonic reactivation is related to the collision of India with Eurasia, during the past 30 million years or so.In this contribution, we describe selected mineral systems¹, from hydrothermal to magmatic, of northern Xinjiang, using published literature and our own field observations. The label of northern Xinjiang, means that in this review we focus on the fold belts or orogens that border the northern part of Tarim Block (Tianshan) and surround the Junggar Block (Altay, west and east Junggar). We discuss models that attempt to explain the links of these systems with aspects of the geodynamic evolution of the Altay and Tianshan orogenic belts, in which these mineral systems are located.

My guess is that TOO MUCH of the wealth is going to people outside of this region hence conflict. However, to be a separatist in Xinjiang is pure suicide. Just look at the map and its location. Yes "The Great Game" is still on but its not going to get far in this part of China.

China does not play footsie with people that have such ideas.
Graffic image http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/i...xecution_3.jpg
and this is not something new
Graffic image http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6KedtySFz7...na+in+1894.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Game...ustomerReviews

[touchring]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

I agree with you that "something is going on" and as you say we can NOT be sure why it is so.

China's involvement in Xinjiang dated back to the BCs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang

Different powers were fighting for control of Xinjiang through the millenniums, before Islam and before oil and gas were discovered. Of course, at that time, the struggle was for the control of trade routes and taxes that could be collected.

[sutro]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

Interesting that one who claimed injury at ad hominem argument decides to deliver this patronizing and dismissive comment. Consider us even.





What Russia is doing is nothing like either the Russian Empire or Soviet Union. If anything Putin is following Bismarck's unification plan for Germany in making a consolidated and relatively stable nation state. Bismark did it for the same reasons, given that before then the Prussians were nothing but divided pawns of the larger nations. And before then the 100 years war between Britain and France can be described as Britain taking advantage of a divided France. Of course nations hate it when there rivals actually cooperate which was why "nationalism " is bad when they say so....

So there is no comparison to be made, for example, with the Pan-Slavism of the past and Putin's stated rationale to protect Russian speakers that are outside of his country's borders but inside his country's sphere of influence?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

So there is no comparison to be made, for example, with the Pan-Slavism of the past and Putin's stated rationale to protect Russian speakers that are outside of his country's borders but inside his country's sphere of influence?

That was not what you were saying before. However this is closer to the truth. As to pan Slavism its more comparable, but its hard to call it a recipe for success. It was also the last of it since Britain, France, Germany and Italy consolidated and it was the same game of how dare the Slavs do what we did. However, Western Slavs never identified with Eastern Slavs. It was too distant a gap with lots of bad blood between them. Given that I am of Croatian and Slovenian decent, I am not merely well read on the subject, I grew up with it. I recall my Grandmother being rather nostalgic for the Hapsburg empire. I recall a rather dim view of both Serbians and Turks. I recall these thinks while eating Croatian nut rolls . Kind of ironic given that it seems I spend so much time on the misconceptions of the Eastern Slav.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Ukraine attacks column of "Armored Russian vehicles"

There are far too many peaceful Muslims in the world and far too many atrocities committed in the name of other religions thoughout history and even now, to blame the Musilim religion soley on the rise of violent extremists.

Nevertheless, aren't there mass casuality attacks of some sort from time to time in western China, or are they a complete fabrication of the MSM?

The problem I have with Judaism and Islam is they they do have a ready means to justify warfare. Call what ever a jihad or your enemy the spirit of Amalek and it can be sound doctrine. Many Crusaders used Christianity as a justification, but then it was not sound Christian doctrine. Not surprising since most Christians could not even read it. That isn't to say that what ever happens to be written down offers much protection, but at least its something.