Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

I've been privy to some feedback from some mid to high level discussions on missed opportunities regarding fairly insignificant funding for Islamic centres of academic gravity that could have mitigated effects of Militant Islam in some places by shaping the message in a moderate direction.

The opportunity was missed, but appears it has not gone unnoticed and efforts may be underway to start the long(er) road back in a moderate direction.

[c1ue]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

Yes we have. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

That's funny - I feel the same way.

"Moderate" Muslims are, I suppose, the tens and hundreds of thousands who have taken to the streets to protest the terror and murder of 9/11, the Boston Bombings, the Bali Bombings, as well as the slaughter of other Muslims, ... oh wait! ....

Liberal Muslims who ignore the plain, obvious meaning of the Koran and Haadith are not "liberal", they are apostate. Like pro-choice "christians"; there is no such thing.

Whoa - watch out, your Inquisition colors are showing.

My view: given that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world - that only a few tens or hundreds of thousands still constitute a tiny minority. And of course, you ignore that there also have been Christian (or simply American) individuals and mobs who demonstrate against Islam.

Hardly a good example.

All I can say is someone Catholic pointing fingers at the violence of other religions - hypocritical to the extreme.

[Raz]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

All I can say is someone Catholic pointing fingers at the violence of other religions - hypocritical to the extreme.

I've done my best to maintain civility with you, c1ue, but you're stretching me to the breaking point.
Your knowledge and prior maintenance of perspicuity I greatly admired and on at least one occasion told you so.

I don't know what's happened to you. You now go out of your way to insult others when you run out of facts.

I am not Roman Catholic and I believe you know that; I've made that clear many times over the past five years.
I'm Eastern Orthodox - and we know as do few others the horrors visited upon other Christians by the Papists. Their the Inquisitionistas - not us.

You never answered my careful, comprehensive rebuttal to all of your ignorance-based insults on this thread:
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...537#post236537

You have a lot of nerve and a very selective memory to call me a hypocrite, sir, combined with an apparent overdose of political correctness.

[c1ue]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

I've done my best to maintain civility with you, c1ue, but you're stretching me to the breaking point.
Your knowledge and prior maintenance of perspicuity I greatly admired and on at least one occasion told you so.

I don't know what's happened to you. You now go out of your way to insult others when you run out of facts.

Any insult you perceive - my apologies.

However, your ongoing insistence in presuming to judge members of religions other than your own, that is quite amazing.

I am not Roman Catholic and I believe you know that; I've made that clear many times over the past five years.
I'm Eastern Orthodox - and we know as do few others the horrors visited upon other Christians by the Papists. Their the Inquisitionistas - not us.

Indeed I do. And it was deliberate - do you perhaps see now why your insistence on lumping all Muslims under one banner is thoroughly insulting and repugnant?

You never answered my careful, comprehensive rebuttal to all of your ignorance-based insults on this thread:
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...537#post236537

Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?

Over and over again, you choose to focus on specific comments and practices of Islam which you use to justify your prejudice. There is no religion on Earth which has not been used to violent ends by some society - this includes both Christianity and Islam as well as Buddhism.

The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.

[radon]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?

To be fair I doubt you have read it in Arabic either, and if he was living in a Muslim society he would be unable to criticize it..

The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.

The Quran explicitly divides the world into two groups, one of believers and the others with different rules applied to each. It isn't just a matter of misinterpretation. The practical difference is that I can make fun of Jesus and not worry about getting stabbed to death. Try saying anything derogatory about Muhammad or even forgetting the obligatorily PBUH in a Muslim society and see where it gets you.

[Raz]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

Are you reading the Koran in Arabic? Are you steeped in the lore of being a Muslim? Are you living in a society which is Muslim to any significant degree?

Do you personally know any Christians who have lived in Egypt, Yemen or Pakistan? How about Buddhist who've lived in those countries? I do, so by your logic I'm entitled to relate not only their experiences but the historical record as well - a record you're apparently not fond of, other than spouting meaningless jingoes about "every religion", "violence everywhere in the Bible", etc.

Over and over again, you choose to focus on specific comments and practices of Islam which you use to justify your prejudice. There is no religion on Earth which has not been used to violent ends by some society - this includes both Christianity and Islam as well as Buddhism.

I focussed on the clear historical record of the spread of Islam and the clear passages in the Koran and Hadith as read and interpreted by Muslin Clerics and Jurists from antiquity forward; not the revisionist, politically correct nonsense spouted by you, sir.

Would you please point out to me clear, historical evidence that Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism or practically any other "ism" has been spread over large areas of this world (as in continental or more than one continenent) by the armed force of military conquest and then installed by the deliberate, determined subjugation of those inhabitants, forcing it upon them?

How many passages in the Old Testament, New Testament, the Hindu Vedas, the Guru Granth and Adi Granth, the Tao Te Ching or the Buddhist texts command and obligate their adherents to spread their faith throughout the entire world by conquest if proselitizing and persuasion fails?

The previous discussion - I posted any number of examples by which the Bible contains violent messaging. Messaging which has been used by members of organized religions to justify violent deeds.

You posted a pile of copied and pasted, innacurate, ignorant drivel which I completely, thoroughly and totally demolished. You insulted me and then proved nothing.

Your "arguments" were off topic and senseless; the issue under discussion was not violence or violent episodes, but whether Islam was fundamentally different than other religions as being commanded to spread their faith throughout the world by force and conquest if necessary. You never produced one single piece of valid, historical, theological evidence to disprove my position. Not one! Your "arguments" were uninformed, innacurate, evasive, emotional and shallow to an extreme.

You, sir, know practically nothing of which you claim to speak. Anyone who wishes can take the hyperlink below and satisfy themselves as to what really transpired.

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...36537#poststop

[reggie]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

I have no intention of attempting debate with you since you see a world of total fabrication. I don't have time to learn another vocabulary and entirely new definitions of meaning.

While you will get no disagreement from me concerning the American Empire, which I hate, that subject does NOTHING to alter the fundamentaly violent nature of Islam. It was NOT spead by unarmed missionaries and the claims of Al-Quaida are little different than those of the Barbary Corsairs face by Jefferson and Adams.

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and Joh Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

Well, then continue to allow others to pull the strings of your worldview. I have no time for the type of discussion and perspective on exhibit in this thread.

[c1ue]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

To be fair I doubt you have read it in Arabic either, and if he was living in a Muslim society he would be unable to criticize it..

I'm not the one saying he knows Islam so well he can criticize the entire religion and all its practitioners.

The Quran explicitly divides the world into two groups, one of believers and the others with different rules applied to each. It isn't just a matter of misinterpretation. The practical difference is that I can make fun of Jesus and not worry about getting stabbed to death. Try saying anything derogatory about Muhammad or even forgetting the obligatorily PBUH in a Muslim society and see where it gets you.

The Bible does the same thing.

The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans.

As for Muhammad or whatever - there are any number of Muslim societies in which what you say is untrue. Malaysia and most of Southeast Asia, for example.

Do you personally know any Christians who have lived in Egypt, Yemen or Pakistan? How about Buddhist who've lived in those countries? I do, so by your logic I'm entitled to relate not only their experiences but the historical record as well - a record you're apparently not fond of, other than spouting meaningless jingoes about "every religion", "violence everywhere in the Bible", etc.

Yes, I do actually.

By my logic, I've seen a lot more of the world, the people in it, and the religions as practiced in many places than most people.

Have you?

Would you please point out to me clear, historical evidence that Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism or practically any other "ism" has been spread over large areas of this world (as in continental or more than one continenent) by the armed force of military conquest and then installed by the deliberate, determined subjugation of those inhabitants, forcing it upon them?

Well, that's a long list. But I'll provide just a few examples to show that you really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Buddhism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songts%C3%A4n_Gampo

This individual is the one who introduced Buddhism into Tibet - he also made Tibet the center of an empire. Conversion by the sword.

Hinduism: Really? This culture and religion has an actual warrior caste. And you want to tell me they're all about peace? The Rig Veda is about a gigantic battle between 10 kings; the details are all suspect but the battle unquestionably took place. If you want a more concrete example: how about the forcible expulsion of millions of Muslims from India, or better yet look up 'hindu attack on sikh' on Google and see what the nets you (and vice versa).

Judaism, Christianity: Really? You ignore what you're own bible says? All the various tribes conquered, smitten by the Lord, women enslaved, land taken over, etc etc? The Crusades? The Inquisition? The ongoing Palestinian captivity?

Sikh: The Sikh's also had their empire period. Sure, they were peaceful in the beginning, but that had all faded into pure power play by the 17th century. That empire was undermined by the British. Plus the ongoing violence: 'sikh attack on hindu', 'sikh attack on christian', etc.

Zoroastrianism: Again, really? Persia saw a succession of empires. Zoroastrianism was the state religion for most of them, thus being in place over Jews, pagans, Christians - of all stripes, Buddhists, and even Muslims later on. Look up Shapur the Great.

Taoism: Besides the Tang practice of 'converting' animist and local deities into the Tao pantheon (similar to the Roman practice of incorporating conquered people's gods), various Taoist sects were deeply involved in Chinese politics - to the point of unseating emperors and burning opposing sects' religious documents. Again hardly a prime example of peace.

[shiny!]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

(My apologies for the formatting problem. For some reason I can't separate paragraphs) c1ue, you are just WRONG on several counts.

The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans.

But they try to kill us just the same. Being a "written" religion didn't prevent the Muslims from trying to exterminate the Sikhs in India during the Mughal Empire. Sikhs are not only forbidden to force conversion on other people, we don't even proselytize because we consider it disrespectful to tell someone that their religion is inferior and they should change. Sikhs are sworn to defend people of other faiths who are being persecuted on account of their religion. This is why Sikhs went to war against the Mughal Empire, because the Hindus asked the Sikhs to intercede on their behalf as the Muslims were slaughtering them. Sikh attack on Hindu or Christian? Perhaps as a personal one-on-one fight, but never as an organized action sanctioned by Sikh authorities. In the months leading up to Operation Bluestar, Indira Gandhi's government designated every fistfight involving a Sikh as an act of terrorism. This they did to give them justification for Operation Bluestar to massacre the Sikhs of the Punjab. Amnesty International designated Operation Bluestar as being equivalent to the Holocaust of the Jews. Operation Bluestar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

[astonas]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

(My apologies for the formatting problem. For some reason I can't separate paragraphs) c1ue, you are just WRONG on several counts. But they try to kill us just the same. Being a "written" religion didn't prevent the Muslims from trying to exterminate the Sikhs in India during the Mughal Empire. Sikhs are not only forbidden to force conversion on other people, we don't even proselytize because we consider it disrespectful to tell someone that their religion is inferior and they should change. Sikhs are sworn to defend people of other faiths who are being persecuted on account of their religion. This is why Sikhs went to war against the Mughal Empire, because the Hindus asked the Sikhs to intercede on their behalf as the Muslims were slaughtering them. Sikh attack on Hindu or Christian? Perhaps as a personal one-on-one fight, but never as an organized action sanctioned by Sikh authorities. In the months leading up to Operation Bluestar, Indira Gandhi's government designated every fistfight involving a Sikh as an act of terrorism. This they did to give them justification for Operation Bluestar to massacre the Sikhs of the Punjab. Amnesty International designated Operation Bluestar as being equivalent to the Holocaust of the Jews. Operation Bluestar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

Thank you for sharing this story, Shiny. I hadn't been aware of this piece of history. I have gained new respect for the Sikh religion.

[jk]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.

[radon]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.

[Raz]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

I'm not the one saying he knows Islam so well he can criticize the entire religion and all its practitioners.



The Bible does the same thing.

The Koran, however, does have one major distinction from the Bible: it classifies 'others' further. Islam recognizes Jesus as a religious figure and furthermore recognizes other religions if the religion is written down. Thus Christians, Jews, and a few other major religions are not considered the same as pagans.

As for Muhammad or whatever - there are any number of Muslim societies in which what you say is untrue. Malaysia and most of Southeast Asia, for example.



Yes, I do actually.

By my logic, I've seen a lot more of the world, the people in it, and the religions as practiced in many places than most people.

Have you?



Well, that's a long list. But I'll provide just a few examples to show that you really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Buddhism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songtsän_Gampo

This individual is the one who introduced Buddhism into Tibet - he also made Tibet the center of an empire. Conversion by the sword.

Hinduism: Really? This culture and religion has an actual warrior caste. And you want to tell me they're all about peace? The Rig Veda is about a gigantic battle between 10 kings; the details are all suspect but the battle unquestionably took place. If you want a more concrete example: how about the forcible expulsion of millions of Muslims from India, or better yet look up 'hindu attack on sikh' on Google and see what the nets you (and vice versa).

Judaism, Christianity: Really? You ignore what you're own bible says? All the various tribes conquered, smitten by the Lord, women enslaved, land taken over, etc etc? The Crusades? The Inquisition? The ongoing Palestinian captivity?

Sikh: The Sikh's also had their empire period. Sure, they were peaceful in the beginning, but that had all faded into pure power play by the 17th century. That empire was undermined by the British. Plus the ongoing violence: 'sikh attack on hindu', 'sikh attack on christian', etc.

Zoroastrianism: Again, really? Persia saw a succession of empires. Zoroastrianism was the state religion for most of them, thus being in place over Jews, pagans, Christians - of all stripes, Buddhists, and even Muslims later on. Look up Shapur the Great.

Taoism: Besides the Tang practice of 'converting' animist and local deities into the Tao pantheon (similar to the Roman practice of incorporating conquered people's gods), various Taoist sects were deeply involved in Chinese politics - to the point of unseating emperors and burning opposing sects' religious documents. Again hardly a prime example of peace.

You did NOT answer the question - you continuously evade it.

It doesn't matter what any individual or group of Taoists or Sikhs or Christians or Jews or Buddhists have done, nor does it matter what any Emperor of the Persians or Hindu King or Pope of Rome has done; what matters is whether or not they adhered to and followed the precepts and commandments of the very faith they claimed to hold, and whether or not that faith commanded them to CONVERT THE ENTIRE WORLD BY ARMED FORCE if sincerely offered persuasion failed.

That is now and always was the point of discussion. I never said that every individual Muslim on this earth was an evil, murdering fanatic.
I said that their faith commanded them to subvert and conquer the entire world if necessary to establish Dar al-Islam everywhere.

Your examples are bogus. Citing the Crusades is totally disingenuous since they were a response to the persecution of Christians in the Holy Land by Muslims; but even if they occured without provocation it still wouldn't matter because Christ NEVER commanded or condoned such. He clearly said that His Kingdom was "not of this world".

No Sikhs or Hindus or Taoists or Buddhists have invaded other countries thousands and thousands of miles from the birthplace of their faith to fulfill a command of their founder to spread their religion by force if persuasion failed, in perpetuity.

You continue to be wrong.

I carefully and completely answered your uninformed assertions and comparisons here: http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...537#post236537

You didn't respond, even after I carefully - and respectfully - explained why you were wrong.
You continue here on another thread to evade and insult because I won't buy into the politically correct view of Islam.

Again, anyone who wishes may take the hyperlink above and decide for themselves which of the two of us knows "what they are talking about".

[Chris Coles]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

you folks really getting anything out of this discussion? just askin'.

Surely the whole concept of a debate is to permit everyone to express their viewpoint. No one wins, but everyone learns a little more than they knew beforehand. A little like dropping a pebble into a still pool of water; over time the ripples subside.

Here in the UK we say something like; I may deeply disagree with what you may say; but I will defend with every bone in my body, your right to the freedom to express your opinion.

I do not support personal attacks; and it is true we have seen some here. May we hope that the process of such debate serves to pour oil on turbulent waters.

[c1ue]

Re: Multiple Explosions Reported at Boston Marathon

It doesn't matter what any individual or group of Taoists or Sikhs or Christians or Jews or Buddhists have done, nor does it matter what any Emperor of the Persians or Hindu King or Pope of Rome has done; what matters is whether or not they adhered to and followed the precepts and commandments of the very faith they claimed to hold, and whether or not that faith commanded them to CONVERT THE ENTIRE WORLD BY ARMED FORCE if sincerely offered persuasion failed.

You're going to have to clarify, because the precepts of every faith have conflicting agendas.

If we take the Koran and the Bible both to be the unquestionable blueprints for Islam and Christianity, respectively, we can find passages in either to justify whatever is desired - either peace or war.

You keep trying to say the Koran is unique in its violence towards unbelievers - and keep refusing to admit the Bible also contains such passages. Previous examples were ignored, here are yet more:

Infanticide as acceptable

O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Swords, those notable instruments of peace

[Jesus] said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.

Killing unbelievers

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

Black Hawk Down and Operation Iraqi Freedom, all in one

You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist.

Dominion over other nations

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all.

Sure, there are passages in the Bible referring to peace, love thy neighbor, etc - but then again, there are passage in the Koran as well.

But of course, you'll then say that Jesus never said such things. The New Testament.

Matthew

3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

More Matthew: unreceptive audiences get the S&G treatment

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Do these passages mean Christianity is inherently evil?

I don't think so. Extremist Christians have used these and others to justify all sorts of violence much as extremist Muslims focus on specific passages of the Koran for their own purposes.