I am the mob

[audrey_girl]

fyi:

[Raz]

Re: I am the mob

We need changes in our healthcare system - particularly in the insurance industry. I don't believe either of the two major parties will do what needs to be done, yet even as a Paleoconservative I had some hope that the Democrats would propose a reasonable bill that most could agree on, since I knew the Republicans would never risk stiffing the Health Insurance Cartel.
Well the Democrats proved themselves to be Demonrats and lost me on day1 when they decided to cover illegal aliens.



Who are the Uninsured - and should We Pay to Cover Them?

Keith Hennessey has analyzed 20 statements made by President Obama during the town hall meeting on health care at Portsmouth, New Hampshire. You can read Hennessey's analysis at his home page.

One of the statements Hennessey examines pertains to what, for Obama and many others, is the starting point in the debate - the number of people who are uninsured.

In Portsmouth, Obama had this to say:

I don't have to explain to you that nearly 46 million Americans don't have health insurance coverage today. In the wealthiest nation on Earth, 46 million of our fellow citizens have no coverage. They are just vulnerable. If something happens, they go bankrupt, or they don't get the care they need.

Hennessey breaks this group of nearly 46 million into five categories. The first, consisting of about 6.5 million, actually is insured. According to Hennessey, they are enrolled in Medicaid or S-CHIP but didn't tell the census taker. This is called the "Medicaid undercount."

The second group, about 4.5 million, consists of people who are eligible for Medicaid or S-CHIP but have not enrolled. If they need care, the hospital or clinic generally enrolls them. In other words, they do not (as Obama claims) go bankrupt or without treatment. In any case, it would be ridiculous to overhaul our healthcare system to provide insurance to people who are already eligible for government assistance but have failed to avail themselves of it.

The third group, about 9.5 million, is comprised of non-citizens. Hennessey notes that people will disagree about what portion of this group should receive government subsidized health insurance. In my view, none should.
And keep in mind that being uninsured is not the same as having to pay (or pay much) for treatment. I've heard illegal immigrants say that they find ways to receive free or inexpensive treatment for themselves and their children. In general, I've read (though I can't find the source) that the uninsured receive about half the amount of money per capita to pay for medical treatment that the insured receive.

The fourth group, another 10 million, earns an income more than three times the poverty line. As such, they can afford to buy medical insurance. Taxpayers should not be required to buy it for them.

This leaves about 15.5 million (one-third of Obama's 46 million) who actually are uninsured, cannot become insured simply by enrolling in a free program, are U.S. citizens, and cannot easily afford to purchase insurance. About 5 million members of this cohort are childless adults.

It is understandable that many Americans would like to see the government do something for this group, or at least those members who are not young, childless, healthy adults with decent starter salaries who simply think it makes economic sense to assume the small risk that they will incur large medical expenses. But it is also understandable that many Americans favor targeting this group through incremental measures to assist them in purchasing insurance, rather than through a radical overhaul of our healthcare system at a massive cost.

Obama knows he needs a big number of "uninsured" to even get in the vicinity of selling what he has in mind to a skeptical public. But the big number he has selected would not get him in the vicinity if the public better understood who it consists of.

JOHN adds: Many young, single people make a perfectly rational decision not to buy health insurance. Accidents are the biggest threat to their health; car accidents are covered by automobile insurance and work-related accidents are covered by workmen's comp. The chance of a young person contracting a catastrophic disease (leukemia, say) is remote, and people aren't stupid: they know that if they contract such a disease they will be treated whether they can pay or not. And young, single people have not acquired a substantial net worth that they could lose to medical bills. This is why, when Pizza Hut made cheap health insurance available to its part-time employees a few years ago, hardly any of them chose to take advantage of it.

One of the purposes of most health care "reform" proposals, stated or unstated, is to force these young people into the system--to force them, that is, to contribute money to pay the medical bills of others, beyond what they already pay in Medicare taxes. Whatever you think of either the justice or the wisdom of such a policy, it is not worth turning our health care system upside down in order to achieve.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../08/024280.php

[flintlock]

Re: I am the mob

I can vouch for the fact that a lot of people who can afford insurance choose not to. I offered it to my employees and one guy didn't want it. Said he didn't need it. And he was no kid. The $60 month was just too much I guess.:rolleyes: That was about 10 years ago and he's no longer with my company, but I still keep in touch. He's never needed the insurance so I guess he played the lottery and won..... so far.

The number of "under insured", now that is a growing problem.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: I am the mob

I can vouch for the fact that a lot of people who can afford insurance choose not to.

I choose not to have health insurance, though I could afford it and could obtain it.

I do so on principle, as well as on economic calculation. Conventional medicine in America, like conventional food, has gone sufficiently astray from what I consider healthy that it is better I avoid it and focus on staying healthy by such means as good nutrition. There are of course risks in any course. One can only choose ones poison.

[doom&gloom]

Re: I am the mob

heading into artificial joint #2 soon, i can say i appreciate mine!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: I am the mob

heading into artificial joint #2 soon, i can say i appreciate mine!

I would sooner know that I cannot readily afford joint replacement, and thus be motivated to take whatever means are necessary, such as diet, lifestyle or exercise changes, to avoid the need.

Something is causing an explosion in the rate of joint replacement. What do you think is that cause? I suspect it is the same cause as that behind the rising rates of chronic illness (cardiovascular, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, obesity, ...) I blame the food, drug and medical industries.

[Ghent12]

Re: I am the mob

I would sooner know that I cannot readily afford joint replacement, and thus be motivated to take whatever means are necessary, such as diet, lifestyle or exercise changes, to avoid the need.

Something is causing an explosion in the rate of joint replacement. What do you think is that cause? I suspect it is the same cause as that behind the rising rates of chronic illness (cardiovascular, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, obesity, ...) I blame the food, drug and medical industries.

Those are very likely possibilities. The true causality is likely an amalgamation of different reasons, such as diet, availability, technology, increase in aggregate age (baby boomers), etc.

My question to you, Mr. Cow:
As someone with the ability to get insurance, is there any "real insurance" available? What I mean is insurance that has high deductibles, but covers catastrophic events adequately and doesn't cover regular doctor's visits.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: I am the mob

As someone with the ability to get insurance, is there any "real insurance" available? What I mean is insurance that has high deductibles, but covers catastrophic events adequately and doesn't cover regular doctor's visits.

A google search for "high-deductible health plans" should provide you a start on this. There are plans with for example $5000 deductibles. You pay the first $5000, they pay the rest, up to some large cap.

I considered getting one of these plans, but since about the only risky thing I do is drive a car, I added medical coverage to my car insurance (for much less money) instead. This too has its risks of course; but I'm willing to take calculated risks and live (or die) by the consequences.

[dummass]

Re: I am the mob

I choose not to have health insurance, though I could afford it and could obtain it.

I do so on principle, as well as on economic calculation. Conventional medicine in America, like conventional food, has gone sufficiently astray from what I consider healthy that it is better I avoid it and focus on staying healthy by such means as good nutrition. There are of course risks in any course. One can only choose ones poison.

I agree with this bovine philosophy and practice it as well. Over the past ten-years, I've needed to visit the doctor once: after smacking myself in the face with a large pair of pliers (doing something stupid of course). With all the money saved on insurance premiums over the years, I could afford the very best plastic surgeon.

It would be more accurate to say that I am self insured. I keep funds available for emergencies and I make my own decisions on how the funds are spent.

[raja]

Re: I am the mob

I agree with this bovine philosophy and practice it as well. Over the past ten-years, I've needed to visit the doctor once: after smacking myself in the face with a large pair of pliers (doing something stupid of course). With all the money saved on insurance premiums over the years, I could afford the very best plastic surgeon.

It would be more accurate to say that I am self insured. I keep funds available for emergencies and I make my own decisions on how the funds are spent.

I'm with dummass (how did you choose that name?) and the cow on this one.

I figure I've saved over $80,000 by not having insurance over my lifetime. In the few times when I went to the doctor, I just paid for it. Aside from treatment for an accident, in each case there was no medical treatment available for the problem . . . so I received no practical advantage from "professional" consultation.

For accidents, I do the same as the Bovinator -- pay for extra medical on my car insurance. Now that I've become a hobby farmer, I'm at more risk from things like the tractor rolling over on me . . . so I'm really careful.

I've read that 80% of illnesses are self-limiting.
In many cases of catastrophic illness, medical treatment only extends life for a short time, and that time is often unpleasant. I also feel that my diet and lifestyle protect me . . . and I will not succumb to the usual sicknesses that plague most Americans. So far, so good. I don't even have a medicine cabinet in my bathroom.

Insurance is a gamble.
It's also an educated gamble, if you believe that it's possible to affect your health positively with proper diet and lifestyle.

[dummass]

Re: I am the mob

I'm with dummass (how did you choose that name?).

I didn't choose it; my parents named me Dummass. That's my real name.

[sadsack]

Re: I am the mob

I'm with dummass (how did you choose that name?)

His avatar is a clue - "dummass" is one of Cartman's favorite pejoratives

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: I am the mob

I didn't choose it; my parents named me Dummass. That's my real name.

Have you considered getting different parents :rolleyes:?

[flintlock]

Re: I am the mob

.
is there any "real insurance" available?

Yes, I have a high deductible policy like that. $10,000 deductible.

Not long ago I would call you guys "going neked" crazy, but as my policy climbs to over $6000 year for coverage that never pays out on much of anything, I have to admit I've considered it myself.



Now eating well, etc, is all fine and dandy. Your approach we used to call " Whistling past the graveyard". But have any of you priced the cost of a seriously broken leg lately? Including rehab. What if a hit and run driver clips you while crossing the road and you end up in the hospital for a few months? Serious car accident? Most auto policy PIP coverage wouldn't cover the first day in ICU. If you have the money to self insure then go fer it.

I don't know how old you guys are but I can guess probably younger than me(?) You may find out you are not as bullet proof as you think you are. Most problems simply don't crop up until later in life. Or do you think you've found the cure for cancer? If you think you can 100% control that genetic ticking time bomb of a family history of cancer or heart disease with diet then you must really believe in it. Just be prepared if you are somehow wrong that without insurance you could be asked to put down a hefty deposit if you want that life saving care. Six figures in some cases. Its not like the emergency room. They do not have to treat you. And having kids makes a difference. If it were just me I'd go neked. But I'm not going to put my kids in a position where they might not be able to get the best possible care.

[flintlock]

Re: I am the mob

I would sooner know that I cannot readily afford joint replacement, and thus be motivated to take whatever means are necessary, such as diet, lifestyle or exercise changes, to avoid the need.

Something is causing an explosion in the rate of joint replacement. What do you think is that cause? I suspect it is the same cause as that behind the rising rates of chronic illness (cardiovascular, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, obesity, ...) I blame the food, drug and medical industries.

A lot is sedentary lifestyle combined with poor diet and being overweight. Probably most. But some so have genetic or other health related causes. My wife needed a hip replacement at 39 due to an auto accident in her teens that damaged the hip. I don't even want to think about what that would have cost me without insurance. She was a passenger in an uninsured driver's car, so no big lawsuit payoff.

The real reason for the explosion in joint replacements? They can do them better and cheaper now. Medicare will pay, so why not?