No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

[Forrest]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Or, ever been about, right?

Forrest, we're going to have to agree to disagree on ACORN. I'm no ACORN partisan or expert and it's clear they were led by shady operatives on the left. But the takedown of ACORN was a GOP dirty trick and it's documented well enough for you to come to your own conclusions.

But that aside, there's not a lot of light between us based on what you just wrote. We're mostly copacetic, I think.

Man, I'm tired and feeling a bit beat up. Talk to you later.

The ACORN business was more of a show of what was ugly about a lot of shady organizations, who are in it for the money, but talk about their ideals. To me, ACORN is a type, not a specific organization, and one that was too easily set up by a couple of kids. Was it by the GOP? That doesn't surprise me. But it wouldn't have been much different in a time of an open press...some clever kid would have gotten in there, and done it anyway.

They could not have been set up if they had been legit, is all I can say. Did ACORN also do good things? I daresay they did, but it was all wrecked by the taint of real evil lurking around far too many of their facilities. So they stopped being ACORN, and began under another name.

I hate politicians. I hate what the media has become. And the reason I hate them is that they lie, and do not stop lying.

My own political views are neither Democratic nor Republican, nor Libertarian.

I am a Liberal Constitutionalist. I believe in following the laws of the original Constitution, and the properly ratified amendments made to it. The Liberal part is about a social safety net...enough to get people through a problem, but not enough for a way of life.

Other than that, I'm pretty simplistic. I can discuss any topic with anyone, so long as no one gets to harp on their talking points. I'll even trade viewpoints, and play Devil's Advocate...that can be fun to get at all the facts. To me, if it is documented, it is the truth. If it's not documented, it hasn't happened yet, or hasn't been proven, it's speculation, and opinion...fun to talk about, but not to argue over.

Or at least not much.

[lektrode]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Raz has always been evenhanded in these forums. A number of times he has complained about Republicans as much as Democrats.
He cites numerous articles pointing out voter fraud, and Woodsman can't cite any, instead listing a litany of past sins.

By the way it was the southern Democrats that were the segregationists in the 50's and 60's, and the Republicans were the major supporters of the civil rights act of 1965.

So stop calling Raz a racist just because he disagrees with some liberal tactics.

Both parties are the FIRE supporters, and Obama bailed out the banksters not the people.

+1, to all the above.

and re: woody's "Because there is no law requiring US citizens to possess ID "to walk the streets legally" in their daily comings and goings..."

there might not be some specific 'law' about NOT having ID - as in: state/fed-issued PHOTO ID - on ones person, but just see what happens should one be asked by the rapidly escalating police state to produce it - never mind if one should happen to commit the heinous atrocity of something like jaywalking in a place where tourists are easy marks for the local gestapo.

and why is it that no matter what the topic is, we get the usual history of racism lecture?

i mean, just what will it take, sides an african in the whitehouse, before we actually get to the 'post racial' America we keep hearing about?

seems to me that its those on the left/lib/dems who are intent on keeping this one going, as its perty near ALWAYS them who brings it up

and yes, i think when one goes to vote, one should be REQUIRED to produce a state/fed-issued PHOTO ID.

same reason i object to having drivers licenses issued to not only illegal immigrants, but those who cant read enough english to PASS A WRITTEN TEST in english - if one cant read the test, one should NOT be licensed to drive.

and after 24 years in the most racially polarized place in The US, i'll state right here/now, that if these views make me 'racist' according to the left's definition, then HELL YEAH BAYBEE, i'm 'racist'.

sez an american of irish ancestry, and a 'small-r' type, and proud of it!

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Raz has always been evenhanded in these forums.

Agreed, generally.

A number of times he has complained about Republicans as much as Democrats.

See above.


He cites numerous articles pointing out voter fraud, and Woodsman can't cite any, instead listing a litany of past sins.

Look again. There are several links.


By the way it was the southern Democrats that were the segregationists in the 50's and 60's, and the Republicans were the major supporters of the civil rights act of 1965.

Thanks. I think I heard that somewhere.


So stop calling Raz a racist just because he disagrees with some liberal tactics.

I'd ask that you please cite the sentence where I called Raz or any other specifically identifiable person anything of the sort, except there isn't any. That's an absolutely false statement. I forgive you for saying it, but please stop spreading these sorts of falsehoods about me.


Both parties are the FIRE supporters, and Obama bailed out the banksters not the people.

I got that after a few weeks here, but thanks for the reminder.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

+1, to all the above.

Fine, but again I called no specific person anything of the sort as VT has falsely promoted and now you advance. I forgive you too, but ask that you stop spreading this slander.

and why is it that no matter what the topic is, we get the usual history of racism lecture?

Some white people who are sensitive to race don't like the matter discussed, especially when for whatever reason they find a need for defensiveness. That defensiveness sometimes manifest itself in a rather limited ability endure disagreement before reaching an emotional limit. This is a fact of life in this country and is evidenced here by several people.

As for you specifically, I regret that I've become a dog whistle for race to you. Lek, what can I do about that? I can't change the history of this country. I can't change the reality of race in America even if white people are not predisposed to talk about it. I certainly have no power to influence you (and it seems most anyone here) about your opinions on race. So what do we do? Does this mean we need to shut down Woodsman and limit what he can talk about because certain dictionary terms upset people?

i mean, just what will it take, sides an african in the whitehouse, before we actually get to the 'post racial' America we keep hearing about?

How the heck should I know, lek? I imagine that if some people here had the authority to do so it would be over before lunchtime, right? But the real world is different as you well know. I know that it won't come until we can talk to each other about it, even when it is uncomfortable and gets the hackles up. There's no hope of getting past it until we can do that at the very least. I depresses me that my personal experience here of late makes me believe our children will not likely see that end in their lifetimes. And I've never claimed that America was "post-racial." I think that's a stupid and demonstrably false statement and I do not believe it or accept it in any way. How can we possibly be post racial and I'm sitting here getting "the treatment." Please.

seems to me that its those on the left/lib/dems who are intent on keeping this one going, as its perty near ALWAYS them who brings it up

Really, lek? And what do you imagine the GOP and the right wing have to say about race that has the slightest bit of credibility with any non-white person in America? They did this to themselves. Blame Nixon, not me wanting to talk about what he and other GOPers have done. Sure, I suppose it would be easier on the sensibilities of white people if black people and minorities would just shut up and go away to suffer in silence, but that's not happening. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.

and yes, i think when one goes to vote, one should be REQUIRED to produce a state/fed-issued PHOTO ID.

Even though it's been shown to be unnecessary, ineffective and prone to abuse. I get it. You want voter ID. Even if all us are disadvantaged. Even if addressing the problems with elections detailed ad-nauseum following Bush v. Gore would just about make voter fraud on the part of those who actually count the ballots impossible, it doesn't matter. You want voter ID. It's not the vote counters who are the problem, it's the voters. I understand your POV.

same reason i object to having drivers licenses issued to not only illegal immigrants, but those who cant read enough english to PASS A WRITTEN TEST in english - if one cant read the test, one should NOT be licensed to drive.

I never once talked about driving, English tests, or anything like that in this thread. It's nice that you want that, too. It always sounded like a good idea to me that one should be able to read traffic signs as a condition of driving. And I too find it strange that one can be "illegal" yet the state will grant you a license for anything.

and after 24 years in the most racially polarized place in The US, i'll state right here/now, that if these views make me 'racist' according to the left's definition, then HELL YEAH BAYBEE, i'm 'racist'.

I don't believe you are. You've never said anything to me to make me suspect that.

Again, I never called any person such a thing. It is a false accusation. I find it curious that now two people have tongue-in-cheek identified themselves as such, but that is their business. I never accused any specific person of that.

[vt]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Woodsman, my apology as you did not specifically call Raz a racist.

But the Democrats you support have repeatedly called anyone who disagrees with the President and any policy racists, as do the propagandists that call themselves journalists.

The real racists are those that want to steal elections: Democrats have lied and done so for years.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_426068.html

The real affront to immigration is the Democrats who support amnesty to 13 million or more ILLEGAL immigrants, while denying the right of the 95% of the world's population that has waited in line, spent money qualifying, learned the language, and now see the illegals wanting to butt in line ahead of them. This is true racism. The Democratic party only wants amnesty because they want the votes, plain and simple.

We are all immigrants; some just arrived sooner. All students should learn a second language, just as all immigrants be required to be proficient in English.

I'm sick and tired of being called or implied as a racist because I support voter ID. I went to integrated public schools in the 60's, lived with poor blacks as a Vista Volunteer, and have many friends of all races. Tell your Democrat friends to shut up the invective and at least have an open mind as you have, and discuss ideas in a civil manner.

By the way my only two employees are both legal immigrants, and are paid extremely well with 100% health coverage and a pension.

[lektrode]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

....However, I open the floor to any and all who care a whit for their POV on Raz's opinion or mine. .....and anyone who does not want to be troubled by the facts and opinions I present can block me from view.

well since you asked, thot i'd tro in... ;)

and i'd never block anybody here, esp YOU, woody - altho i suspect plenty have blocked me, that matters not a lick - but as i've mentioned before, i enjoy reading those that challenge my POV, and i esp like YOUR challenges - helps me determine where the truth vs the ideology lays (vs lies) since i also value the historical context with which you make your points and thats esp what eye like about these exchanges

You won't hurt my feelings and I won't take it as a personal offense even if you mean it as such.

none taken on this end either.

Fine, but again I called no specific person anything of the sort as VT has falsely promoted and now you advance. I forgive you too, but ask that you stop spreading this slander.



Some white people who are sensitive to race don't like the matter discussed, especially when for whatever reason they find a need for defensiveness. That defensiveness sometimes manifest itself in a rather limited ability endure disagreement before reaching an emotional limit. This is a fact of life in this country and is evidenced here by several people.

As for you specifically, I regret that I've become a dog whistle for race to you. Lek, what can I do about that? I can't change the history of this country. I can't change the reality of race in America even if white people are not predisposed to talk about it. I certainly have no power to influence you (and it seems most anyone here) about your opinions on race. So what do we do? Does this mean we need to shut down Woodsman and limit what he can talk about because certain dictionary terms upset people?

the problem, as eye see it, with 'race relations' in The US - is that - nears i know - we seem to be the only country that gets all hung up by it - and my specific problem with it, is that the political class - and the lib/dems in particular - USES it to _divide_ and or DISTRACT us - and its the same with 'gender relations'.

when most of The Rest of US - vs some sliver of the electorate, whatevah sliver that happens to be the most 'activated' this week - IMHO - are pretty much 'live and let live' types - right up until the 'activist' crowd is intent on jamming whatever it is thats gottem 'activated' (this week) right down our throats/in our faces - esp after they cant/dont get their way at the ballot box...

and then we get the lamestream media all piling on and its like the only thing that matters, is THIS WEEKS HOT BUTTON

when us 'conservative' - or as i like to put it - us 'small-r' types tend to be focused on stuff that impacts our day-to-day survival - i mean, its nice/commendable to be all 'activated' about whatevah it is that the media-activists want to focus on - this week - even tho they'll be onto something different next week - but the political class - again, the lib/dems in particular - want to legislate some 'solution' - usually with some funding 'mechanism' - that typically causes a number of unintended consequences - that then end up whacking the working class and/or us small biz operators, the hardest - while the political class can then just write themselves another lil tweak of an exemption to the havoc they just wrought (see the 'aca')

and thats why some of us get all... uhhh... kneejerky... on some of this stuff.

esp racism.

How the heck should I know, lek? I imagine that if some people here had the authority to do so it would be over before lunchtime, right? But the real world is different as you well know. I know that it won't come until we can talk to each other about it, even when it is uncomfortable and gets the hackles up. There's no hope of getting past it until we can do that at the very least. I depresses me that my personal experience here of late makes me believe our children will not likely see that end in their lifetimes. And I've never claimed that America was "post-racial." I think that's a stupid and demonstrably false statement and I do not believe it or accept it in any way. How can we possibly be post racial and I'm sitting here getting "the treatment." Please.



Really, lek? And what do you imagine the GOP and the right wing have to say about race that has the slightest bit of credibility with any non-white person in America? They did this to themselves. Blame Nixon, not me wanting to talk about what he and other GOPers have done. Sure, I suppose it would be easier on the sensibilities of white people if black people and minorities would just shut up and go away to suffer in silence, but that's not happening. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.



Even though it's been shown to be unnecessary, ineffective and prone to abuse. I get it. You want voter ID. Even if all us are disadvantaged. Even if addressing the problems with elections detailed ad-nauseum following Bush v. Gore would just about make voter fraud on the part of those who actually count the ballots impossible, it doesn't matter. You want voter ID. It's not the vote counters who are the problem, it's the voters. I understand your POV.



I never once talked about driving, English tests, or anything like that in this thread. It's nice that you want that, too. It always sounded like a good idea to me that one should be able to read traffic signs as a condition of driving. And I too find it strange that one can be "illegal" yet the state will grant you a license for anything.



I don't believe you are. You've never said anything to me to make me suspect that.

Again, I never called any person such a thing. It is a false accusation. I find it curious that now two people have tongue-in-cheek identified themselves as such, but that is their business. I never accused any specific person of that.

its OK, woody - i forgive you too - we CAN discuss all this stuff, but the continous harpin on all the liberals old demons - decades and decades after all sorts of legislated 'solutions' have been attempted and have caused thousands and thousands of pages of ridiculous unintended consequence$ - around and around and around again - just gets old after a while - and.. well... some things wont likely _ever_ be fixed/solved (since The US didnt invent slavery/racial-religious-gender hatred, we just get stuck PAYING for it, decade after decade after decade...)

i just get tired of having the political class devote so much of OUR TIME - since its NOT 'their' time, when they are in session/in DC, its OURS and i resent the hell out of what some of em want to fritter away sessions on - never mind 'special sessions' - when for 5 years now we've heard about some mythical 'pivot to jobs' and yet the only thing that seems to matter - syriaously - is gender relations?

and then, when anything else gets brought up - we end up right back to where this all started - in the 1960's ????

thats what i get tired of, and dont need a dog whistle to get 'activated' by.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Requiring an ID to cast your vote is "voter suppression", even though the state governments are willing
to bend over backwards to issue one to you and it's almost impossible to conduct your daily affairs without one.

The most outrageous thing about the above is that the countries of origin of the illegal aliens in the U.S. require a voter ID that can only be obtained when one provides proof of citizenship. And yet, when similar policies are proposed in the U.S., a cry rings out that it is a way to deny disadvantaged "Americans" their right to vote!

For whatever insane reason, speaking out against granting U.S. entitlements and voting rights for everyone on the planet gets one labeled as a racist. Isn't possible that some of us are "cheapskates" and don't want to be forced into giving our money to people who aren't Americans and shouldn't be allowed to become Americans?

[lektrode]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

The most outrageous thing about the above is that the countries of origin of the illegal aliens in the U.S. require a voter ID that can only be obtained when one provides proof of citizenship. And yet, when similar policies are proposed in the U.S., a cry rings out that it is a way to deny disadvantaged "Americans" their right to vote!

For whatever insane reason, speaking out against granting U.S. entitlements and voting rights for everyone on the planet gets one labeled as a racist. Isn't possible that some of us are "cheapskates" and don't want to be forced into giving our money to people who aren't Americans and shouldn't be allowed to become Americans?

and who DONT want - make that RESENT THE HELL OUT OF - the political class benefiting from pandering to and blowing billions on buying the votes of whatevah sliver of the electorate happens to feel 'discriminated' or 'activated' this week... since most of US, that is Americans - have ALL been 'discriminated' against, one way or another (and try living where i have been and NOT feel what it feels like...)

when most of The Rest of US are having a hard enough time just 'paying the rent' (or groaning under the burden dumped on our shoulders by the bailout of the billionaire boyz club of lwr manhattan)

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

I appreciate you leading with that, VT. I'm grateful for your generosity and humility. And by the way I don't identify as a Democrat and don't support the party in any way. Thanks again.

[Forrest]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

The most outrageous thing about the above is that the countries of origin of the illegal aliens in the U.S. require a voter ID that can only be obtained when one provides proof of citizenship. And yet, when similar policies are proposed in the U.S., a cry rings out that it is a way to deny disadvantaged "Americans" their right to vote!

For whatever insane reason, speaking out against granting U.S. entitlements and voting rights for everyone on the planet gets one labeled as a racist. Isn't possible that some of us are "cheapskates" and don't want to be forced into giving our money to people who aren't Americans and shouldn't be allowed to become Americans?

I don't think the Boomers on down are particularly racist...we lived the civil rights moment, and grew up in a less bigoted world than our parents. My Dad was bigoted as to race in general, having been taught to be, yet he worked with assimilated people of all races without difficulty, and had friendships there.

Racism is not actually the problem...bigotry is, lack of assimilation is, and the political manipulation of emotion by throwing the race card if someone disagrees with you.

Everyone one in America is aware of race and culture, and are tired of importing people against our will, when every other country in the world will jail or kick out such an intruder.

I don't dislike legal immigrants...all my people came into America between 1845 and 1880. One intermarried with a Native Sioux Indian, and we look like it, even though we are mostly German, Austrian and English.

Living in Southern California, we are overwhelmed with illegals of all colors and races. I resent our high Hospital bills, for anchor babies, and welfare for the anchor baby's moms. I resent our insane State Government trying to redress all the wrongs of the world when it is not their job to do that. Their job is to run the State for the citizens of the State. I'm tired of paying taxes for the Industrialists to bring in slave labor.

I want the illegals to be forced back across the border sure to apply for legal entrance, just like I would have to if I wanted to move countries, but there's no point in doing that without putting an army at the border to protect us from the immigrants that fill the slave labor lists of the money people for both Democrats and Republicans. It is they that are the ones who want the illegals here. Neither Party will agree to closing the border, or any other method that would get the crime out of ICE, and thewhole lot of Politicians that openly break the law just because their scratch-my-back agenda requires it.

I want White Leadership, and Black Leadership, and Latino Leadership, and Asian Leadership, and everyone in between see to the problems we American's have before we try to fix the rest of the world, or invite people we do not need to come here.

I want the Politicians brought to heel on both sides for their corruptions and special interests.

I want the schools actually teaching how to read, and write, and do arithmetic, and I want the schools to teach people how to live in a common sensible way. I do not want the schools teaching any kid to be a believer in any party, just the whole history of the US...the bad and the good, until they know it all.

And I do want the people who hate other races, the bigots, to shut up, and stay out of the discussion about race. We already know that they hate races other than their own...Black, White, Native American, Latino, Asian...it doesn't matter.

And I want the rest of us to discuss race as calmly, and as patiently as possible...with the facts, and no emotion. We have to put the pain of the past away, and begin again.

Righting past wrongs is not the point. Preventing new wrongs from happening is.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Moyers is a working class Southerner. He knows the people, history and culture well.

Moyers was one of the many LJB's ("Lyndon Johnson's Boy") who owed their livelihoods to Johnson. He must have served LBJ well because he rose from mail boy to special assistant with daily, solitary contact with the President. That's the coin of the realm in political career climbing, friends. Access.

Johnson delegates Moyers to run the details on kicking off the Great Society and also other less noble tasks, too. He's "The Young Man in Charge of Everything," an insider and willing to play hardball to a degree as the price of doing business. But like so many men of his generation, the carnage in Vietnam changes something in him or stirs something long dormant. He breaks with LBJ over the war.

He goes to work for Newsday but gets into a pissing match with the owner because he's considered too liberal, two Pulitzers and increased circulation be damned. Moyers and the employees try to buy the magazine, but the Guggenheim family will choke before they let this pinko commie bleeding heart have a national magazine to run on his own. Moyers ponies up $10 million more than the highest purchase price offer, but learns that it's not about the money. The family writes him off and he retires to a sinecure at PBS in defeat.

Moyers knows the deal. Remember he was LBJ's liaison to Kennedy in the Senate and was one of the few LBJ cronies JFK and Bobbie could stand to have around. After Dallas, Moyers shoots straight from second banana at the Peace Corps to the Oval Office and West Wing. His hands aren't clean. He knows the score and has the scars to prove it. So he has credibility in my view. You may not like what he has to say, but he's knows what he's talking about.

[vinoveri]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

And now Bloomberg get's on the "south rises again" bandwagon. Wow, who could have known, the whole budget battle is because of the racists south (they're careful to avoid a direct link to Obama's race and the present battle, but boy it's an easy jump for my fellow non-thinking americans).

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...ullifiers.html

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. Sociologists and political scientists have been studying electoral trends and attitudes in the south for decades. They've come to some conclusions you might consider.

As a graduate student, Professor John Shelton Reed studied 30 years' worth of Gallup Polls attempting to support his original thesis that decreases in regional differences in attitudes and values were due to the South's resurgance as an urban, industrial region increasingly like the rest of the United States.

What he found was just the opposite. As he would publish in his landmark work "The Enduring South: Subcultural Persistence in Mass Society," rather than a decrease in regional differences, the data showed that Southerners were actually becoming "more Southern" over time. By that, he means that the white South continues to be distinguished from the rest of the nation by its distinct attitudes and behavioral norms.

And what are those norms?

He found that Southerner's thinking is dominated by "localism" with their awareness primarily delimited by the South as a geographical and cultural region and characterized by a hyper allegiance to state, community and family.

The data showed Southerners have the highest tolerance for and propensity towards violence, basing the conclusion on Southern rates of gun ownership, crime statistics and public attitudes concerning state sanctioned violence like war, the death penalty and corporal punishment.

Reed confirmed the Southern zeal for ultra-orthodox religious expression, severe forms of Protestantism and experiential religious conversion, with Southerners more likely to lament the diminishing influence of religion over people's everyday lives and to view society as in a state of moral decline.

The most important aspect of Reed's work is his confirmation that traditional Southern identity endures and is at work in the modern South. Southern institutions are dominated by the cultural history of the South and reinforce the region's mythology of its past and help maintain it in a state of permanent cultural stasis.

Reed published his research in the 1970s and if nothing time has reinforced his conclusions. He can't be dismissed as a Yankee elitist or and outsider, as he is a professor at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and founder of the university's Center for the Study of the American South.

So I'd be wary of calling out people concerned about the attitudes and behavior of Southerners as idiotic. Here's a thought experiment you might try. Find a map of the old Confederacy and compare it to the presidential election results from 2012, 2008, etc. Tell me if anything stands out. Notice where is the GOP strongest. Yes, in the states of the old Confederacy. Where do people self-identify as "conservative" or "very conservative?" Uh huh.

And since we're talking so much about the cognitive power of some Americans, recall that the American South lags in every criteria that would be considered a marker of smart.

[vt]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Wow! That's quite a condemnation of an entire region of the country.

And what's your definition of smart? Did they bring a few good old boys in to create the Affordable Care Act computer system? I don't recall any rabid southerners in the leadership of the past 5 years. Those Harvard guys in charge now are considered smart, but are they really great at running things?

The over educated elites have done a poor job of getting the American worker back on the job. Black unemployment is still high and college graduates struggle as never before to find careers.

Maybe your thinking of George W. Bush? But GW and his Dad were both born in the the Northeast and went to Harvard and Yale.

Lyndon Johnson was born in the south, but was responsible for the Civil Rights Act and Medicare.

Jimmy Carter was really smart, but not a great President. Jimmy is revered by those exceedingly intelligent academics.

Don't forget Bill Clinton! He is very smart and was a good President.

But these gentlemen were southerners! And they're not smart?

[vinoveri]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

With all respect Woodsman, pointing out the research of tenured professor as validating the hypebolic hypothesis rapidly solidifying as meme of the left is not convincing (I have not reviewed Shelton's work, so am not commenting on it per se), and can tell you that as someone trained in the hard sciences I really do find troubling the gravitas and respect that social scientistic and historicist types are given in today's society culture, other evidence of "no one want to think; they just want confirmation of their position". You know I am sure that any picture can be painted if one asks the "appropriate questions" at the outset of a "study". So many of these folks aren't after the truth, but merely to advance their careers and make friends with the secular age. History is written by the academies and whatever social-cultural views are dominant therein (and we certainly know what that has been over the last 50 years).

I would suggest Noam Chomsky (no right winger as you know), in "Understanding Power" he goes into detail of how the universities and career paths in academia are severely limited to those who don't have the right "worldview" i.e., current secular dogma.

So the GOP is strongest is the south. I don't see your point.

Be interested in hear your definition of smart? And let's look at our great progressive state of California

http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-n...ised-to-change
Eighth-graders in Texas rank 10th nationally in mathematics; their counterparts in California are at the bottom of the heap, just above Mississippi and Alabama, at 49th.
Per pupil spending in the Lone Star State is in the neighborhood of California's, clocking in at 44th nationwide by the measure of Education Week. And yet, students in California are vastly outperformed by their peers in Texas -- the nation's second-largest state, whose demographics closely mirror those of California. (In both states, for instance, Latino students have recently become a majority population in the schools.)