No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

[Woodsman]

The Daily Mail caters to certain lumpen element of the right, no doubt. And there's antisemitic and Nazi sympathizing history of its founder. But I'm astonished to read this venom. Did he really say "the jealous God of Deuteronomy"?

All's fair in war and politics and to look for a fair shake from crypto-fascists is just dumb, I suppose.

[Forrest]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

The Daily Mail caters to certain lumpen element of the right, no doubt. And there's antisemitic and Nazi sympathizing history of its founder. But I'm astonished to read this venom. Did he really say "the jealous God of Deuteronomy"?

All's fair in war and politics and to look for a fair shake from crypto-fascists is just dumb, I suppose.

Reading the article, the author did say that YHVH was a jealous God...Which He is, but only of those who are in Covenent with Him, Old or New. YHVH is not concerned with unbelievers...He considers that a personal rejection, and just stands aside until judgement day, which for Nazi loving anti-Semites may not go so well.

More and more one sees that Journalists are bringing up Jews and Christians again as if we were the enemy of all rational thought, when we are just ideologically non-Humanist. It does remind one so much of the bad days in the past Century, when the Nazis used one small group of non-Lutherans as an excuse to unite a country, and go to war for territorial reasons. The propaganda was indeed brilliantly done, but not half so well as our wonderful media can do now.

Expecting fairness is pointless since it doesn't seem to be something one can expect from journalism...they are bought and paid for these days, or worse true believers that are taking sides. Look at Obama's admirers. Many cannot get that weird tingle back out of their leg, and it shows in all they do. As for non-liberal reporters, it is hard to find them, and they are often propagandizing themselves.

These days I get enough information from just reading the headlines on a handful of international papers...once I see the topic, I rarely want to read the story. Now, if it were ever really some news, it might be worthwhile, but I don't really think much of that is really out there in the regular media. It gets in the way of the agenda being pushed. The reporters (they are not really journalists anymore) speculate on the day's talking points, and when the real news hits, they hardly mention it.

After reading the AP, The Jerusalem Post, The London Tribune, France 24, and Pravda, I started to notice that the new real news stories were few and far between...and held far too long on the digital newspapers to count as useful news. They spend most of their time spinning old stories with the correct ideological tint on them, and one doesn't really need to get the so-called news more than twice a week or so.

Now I know why Ed Murrow could cover the important news in just half an hour a day. There really isn't all that much happening out there, unless it is business or war related (I think they are the same thing, actually), and even those reports cover a doubtful bunch of information.

Social and political is always the same. People get hurt and killed, Criminals have car chases, and the Politicians lie.

And now that the Media is all opinion, speculation and propaganda, fairness is not going to happen, the truth will be buried, and a lot of bad things will eventually happen.

And when we get the crash that's coming, the shake up may produce a better system for a time...and get a lot of journalists fired. At least, I hope so. I'd like to see a little fairness out there myself.

[vinoveri]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

While not so personal, the insanity is everywhere ....OMG the "south is rising again" , well at least he didn't call them domestic terrorists ..... where do they get these idiots (or maybe in fact they are geniuses leveraging the dumbing down and inability to think of most americans) -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...y.html?hpid=z2

[Raz]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

While not so personal, the insanity is everywhere ....OMG the "south is rising again" , well at least he didn't call them domestic terrorists ..... where do they get these idiots (or maybe in fact they are geniuses leveraging the dumbing down and inability to think of most americans) -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...y.html?hpid=z2

The Left has an endless supply of them to draw upon - from the black population or from California. (Driver's Licenses for Illegal Aliens.)


"Today there is a New Confederacy, an insurgent political force that has captured the Republican Party and is taking up
where the Old Confederacy left off in its efforts to bring down the federal government."


Yeah, right. The Pelosicare (Obamacare) boondoggle should apply in full to those groups not favored by our President.
And unlimited federal spending will never bring down the credit markets, monetary system and federal government with it.


"Its members are as extreme as their ideological forebears. It matters not to them, as it didn’t to the Old Confederacy, whether they ultimately go down in flames. So what? For the moment, they are getting what they want: a federal government in the ditch, restrained from seeking to create a more humane society that extends justice for all. ...

Legislation aimed at suppressing votes is pending across the country, notably in the Deep South.
Hold on to that Confederate money, y’all. Jim Crow just might rise again."


Requiring an ID to cast your vote is "voter suppression", even though the state governments are willing
to bend over backwards to issue one to you and it's almost impossible to conduct your daily affairs without one.

They are race-baiters, liars and demagogues.
You can add Eugene Robinson to that group.

[Forrest]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

I don't care if there is an ID...just use a nice purple fingerprint instead. Once scanned into a computer, all the duplicates can be thrown out, and you'd still get an honest vote.

I do, however, wonder why the ID we need to walk the streets legally is considered voter suppression...it's more like over-voter suppression.

[vinoveri]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Wow, and I kind of like Bill Moyers and most recently his voice and platform against the banksters, corruption etc, but here again is a comparison to the confederate south hyperbole ad ridiculuum - and my educated fellow americans fall right for this kind of crap which is most depressing ....

(and where is this "absence of gov costs us money" view come from ... OK yes, I know we are all Keynesians now, but just this sort of sentiment should put to rest any notion that we are a country of freedom and free enterprise but rather a centrally planned and controlled top-down corporatists system where the Fed gov decides 1) how much money will be created, 2) what it will be spent on, 3 who gets to spend it and 4) when citizens can visit our public lands )



http://billmoyers.com/segment/bill-m...down-showdown/
This week’s government shutdown has consequences for all of us, costing an estimated $300 million each day that the government is closed for business. Many Americans have voiced their frustrations with the fallout from the shutdown on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter using the hash tag #DearCongress. Here, Bill Moyers shares his own thoughts on the shutdown, and the resulting sabotage of democracy.
“When the president refused to buckle to this extortion, they threw their tantrum,” Bill says. “Like the die-hards of the racist South a century and a half ago, who would destroy the union before giving up their slaves, so would these people burn down the place, sink the ship.” He goes on to tell us where the “reckless ambition” of the Republicans could lead us.

[c1ue]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Unfortunately, deliberate or no, polarization is the name of the game.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

I do, however, wonder why the ID we need to walk the streets legally is considered voter suppression...

Let me try to help.

Because there is no law requiring US citizens to possess ID "to walk the streets legally" in their daily comings and goings.

Because proponents of such voter suppression laws are unable to show that voter fraud (committed by voters) is a problem anywhere in the country.

Because the Department of Justice’s 2002 “Ballot Access and Voting Integrity Initiative” obtained only 26 convictions or guilty pleas for voter fraud between 2002 and 2005.

Because it is illegal for state officers to demand proof of citizenship when voting or registering, thus negating the alleged purpose of voter ID laws.

Because requiring photo ID disproportionately affect minority, handicapped and elderly voters who don't normally maintain driver's licenses and so must obtain and locate IDs in order to express their political rights - IDs that are otherwise unneeded.

Because elections are funded locally and rich counties provide adequate facilities for all to vote, and poor counties do not.

Because many of the states that have enacted or attempted to enact such laws are the same states that enacted Jim Crow voter suppression laws in the past.

Because the voting fraud that does occur is the result of the conscious efforts by the corporations, political parties, and corrupt election officials who manage elections, not voters casting ballots.

Because 33 of 50 state election directors in the US are themselves elected political partisans.

Because Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris served as state co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign during the 2000 presidential election.

Because Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell served as his state's Bush-Cheney co-chair during the 2004 presidential election.

Because partisan groups use disinformation tactics to suppress votes.

Because of vote caging and ballot rolls clearing.

Because of phone jamming.

Because Al Gore won the 2000 presidential election on the votes of 5 super-citizens on the Supreme Court.

Because "show us your papers" is not in the American tradition.

Because we're America, not Europe where national identification is commonplace and a longstanding infrastructure exists to ensure all voters are issued ID at no cost.

Because of "Jim Crow" and poll taxes, literacy tests, 8 box laws, white primaries, the rest of our sad history of racism, discrimination and disenfranchisement.

Because of Rosa Parks.

Because of Ernest Green, Elizabeth Eckford, Jefferson Thomas, Terrence Roberts, Carlotta Walls LaNier, Minnijean Brown, Gloria Ray Karlmark, Thelma Mothershed, and Melba Pattillo Beals.

Because of Vivian Malone Jones and James Hood.

Because of Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman, and James Chaney.

Because of Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson and Denise McNair.

And because the primary motivation for voter ID laws and other attempts at suppressing black and minority votes is based on white racial animus against blacks and the general fear of political participation by minorities and the poor.

[Raz]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Well Woodsman, I must confess: you're absolutely right.

NOTHING has changed in the past fifty years. Absolutely nothing. Every white Southerner is Simon Legree and every Republican wants to be Simon Legree.
And nothing will ever change as long as there is a white southerner holding political office anywhere, unless he is a clone of Morris Dees.

We can assume without question the moral superiority of EVERY black person, especially those renowned public serpents Melvin Reynolds, William "Freezer" Jefferson, Charlie Rangel, and certainly the selfless Rev. Jesse "Love Child" Jackson and the Rev. Alfred "Tawana" Sharpton.

There is no voter fraud - ever, among state and county Democratic political machines - Daley's Chicago ("Vote early and vote often") and Tunica County, Mississippi are clear proof of that. http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/29/mi...f-voter-fraud/

Nor is there any voter fraud in Forrst County, Mississippi. http://yallpolitics.com/index.php/yp/post/35552/

Nor is there any in Ohio: http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/...z/-/index.html

Or anywhere else: http://electionlawcenter.com/tags/26...r-fraud-1.aspx



We can be absolutely certain that the Brennan Center would never tilt their methodology, investigative procedure or sampling when surveying alleged voter fraud since their namesake was a perfect Moderate who never showed any political bias and "walked the line" straight down the middle.

"We current Justices read the Constitution in the only way that we can: as twentieth century Americans. We look to the history of the time of framing and to the intervening history of interpretation. But the ultimate question must be, what do the words of the text mean in our time. For the genius of the Constitution rests not in any static meaning it might have had in a world that is dead and gone, but in the adaptability of its great principles to cope with current problems and current needs."

In deference to Mr. Justice Brennan the Constitution was indeed meant to be a "living document" - that's why the Founders placed within it a procedure for Amendment. But it was not then and should never be "amendable" by the arrogant opinions of five activist jurists, for whom Mr. Justice Brennan was a poster child.


We can count on ACORN to alert our nation should anyone attempt to register non-citizens or corrupt electoral integrity.
http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html




And the police can never arrest you if you're unable or unwilling to provide any identification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

And one can conduct any transaction anywhere without any identification whatsoever, including picking up your prescriptions for any and all manner of drugs.


And ABOVE ALL, the only reason any "white" politician (or Republican, Libertarian, Conservative, etc.) wants to insure the integrity of the vote is their raging hatred of anyone and anything of color. Same as their evil, racist insistence upon "Border Security", another cryptic, KKK type term revealing the racism inherent within their white "cracker"DNA.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Raz, the point is not moral superiority. The point is that they are barking up the wrong tree. The threat to the integrity of elections does not come from voters.

As for the cases of voter fraud you linked, thank you for backing up my point. While the malfeasance of a single NAACP member from Mississippi does not exactly rise to the level of Bush v. Gore or Diebold Election Systems, I concede it.

But I don't believe I endorsed any of the black leadership you mentioned. I suggest that if you are unsatisfied with the quality of black leadership today, you might look to it as a by product of the fact that the "qualified" black leadership was systematically murdered between 1965 and 1968, not to mention the two most important white political supporters of the civil rights movement, the Kennedy brothers. After seeing their leadership gunned down in cold blood, I expect some of the natural leaders of whom you might approve had second thoughts about stepping up to the plate.

Tu quoque is not much of a defense, friend. Neither is refuting arguments that I never made in the first place regarding police and ID. Or conflating commercial transactions with the exercise of voting rights. Or citing tendentious claims by discredited conservative propagandists like James O'Keefe and the execrable David Horowitz.

The ACORN stunt made for nice television, but there always was more heat than light. Mendaciously edited videos aside, the whole event amounted to a great big goose egg. But like all good propaganda, the effect was achieved well before the truth was known. The rank-and-file right ate it up like a dog eats its vomit and the elite right wing money machine made the most of it in their fundraising. And we're still talking about it.

Me, I could care less about ACORN. Like so many of these organizations, they lose their way and start to rot from the top. Founder Wade Rathke was found to be an embezzling crook, so there's that to support your position. But it's a long way from there to the notion still advanced by the right wing that ACORN stole the election for Obama and that they are responsible for the subprime mortgage crisis.

And the idea that the GOP is looking to preserve the integrity of elections is so laughable that it's a good thing you wrote your piece in the style of Jonathan Swift. I'd hate for people to think you actually believed that nonsense. Same goes for the border, as you well know that both the GOP and the Democratic Party want more unlimited immigration legal or otherwise - more cheap labor to water down wages, more votes for Democrats.

But here we are arguing with each other.

[Raz]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Because of "Jim Crow" and poll taxes, literacy tests, 8 box laws, white primaries, the rest of our sad history of racism, discrimination and disenfranchisement.

Because of Rosa Parks.

Because of Ernest Green, Elizabeth Eckford, Jefferson Thomas, Terrence Roberts, Carlotta Walls LaNier, Minnijean Brown, Gloria Ray Karlmark, Thelma Mothershed, and Melba Pattillo Beals.

Because of Vivian Malone Jones and James Hood.

Because of Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman, and James Chaney.

Because of Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson and Denise McNair.

And because the primary motivation for voter ID laws and other attempts at suppressing black and minority votes is based on white racial animus against blacks and the general fear of political participation by minorities and the poor.

"Our sad history of racism" is to be with us for how long, Woodsman? Until there are no white Republicans elected anywhere in the states that made up the Old South? Until we go a decade where no black activist or politician in America ever cries "racism!"?
And until then we must assume that election commissioners and state officials from Texas to Virginia are plotting to defraud every black person they possibly can of their right to cast a vote?

I strongly support closing our borders to invaders, i.e., illegal aliens. I also support voter ID requirements.
By your statements above that makes me a bigot and/or a racist, perhaps of the soft variety (not a Klansman or Ayrian Nation type) but a racist nonetheless.

I was eleven when John Kennedy was murdered; sixteen when Martin Luther King was murdered. I remember the cold-hearted remarks of my own father and some of our neighbors so I do know what racism truly is. What could I have done at such a young age other than tell my parents that they were wrong?
You are smearing everyone in the South of 2013 as if it were 1963 - much as some people would smear present-day Germans for the monstrous crimes of their forefathers. Nice attempt at spinning what you clearly meant, though.

Voter fraud is not confined to an isolated incident in Mississippi or Ohio. There are 125% more registered voters in Walthall County, Mississippi than the entire population above the age of eighteen! "Vote early and vote often" works well in such a place.

And it's more than a stretch to believe that this is an isolated incidence in the thousands of counties within the United States.
But since it's not the FIRE lobby with BIG money (especially Republican money) distorting a Congressional vote we should all just look the other way as local elections are stolen across the nation. After all, it's "payback time".

I know what we're dealing with concerning the Republicans and Democrats. But I support any idea that I deem to be good no matter where it comes from. And I not only disagree with your post but find it to be an attempt at guilt by association and the smearing of an entire region of the country.

And I don't like your arrogant, condescending, insulting tone "friend". You seem to dredge up a never ending list of "excreble" names among the "right wing" but profess to be only a searcher of the truth who "never supported" any of the excreble names I mentioned.

What makes you think I support Horowitz or that every thing about ACORN is false simply because Horowitz referenced it?
I would take James O'Keefe and those "tendentious claims" ANY DAY over an asshole like Jim McDermott. Ever heard of him and his little brush with the Federal courts over illegally furnishing an illegal recording of a Republican Congressman to the New York Slimes? He got stuck with a helluva lot more than a $1,500 fine. But since it was Gingrich I suppose the "fair and balanced" Left considers it justifiable.
I'm confident you wouldn't think so because you're never ever "tendentious" to any degree.

You said that this is America and we don't say "show us your papers". But then claim that I "refuted arguments you never made" concerning Voter ID? I "conflated commercial transactions with voting rights"; so you believe the integrity of a liquor store or bank transaction is of a higher necessity than the ballot whereby we elect people who pass the very laws governing the aforesaid transactions?

Lets just say we don't agree and we're not "friends" and leave it at that before this conversation morphs into something really ugly.

As the excreble Keith Obermann would say, "Good night and good luck".

[Forrest]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Raz, the point is not moral superiority. The point is that they are barking up the wrong tree. The threat to the integrity of elections does not come from voters.

Woodsman, the people paying organizations like Acorn are numerous, and every little Acorn type organization matters. One fraudulent vote takes out my vote. A second takes out yours. You get enough fake voters, and you can do wonders in an election.

But with computers, it's just all too easy for the same big money people to pay the Acorn type organizations to quietly hack into the voter registry, and change the numbers. If you have enough money, you can pay a lot of people to dummy up a lot of things.

Please don't say the Acorn type organizations of people don't matter to you, or bother you, when the same people that worked for Acorn will happily do whatever it takes for the big money guys' agenda to go through. Most of these people can be talked into anything if it will get their agenda accomplished. Or make them money. Or both.

As for the black leadership, most of them seem to be caught in a power warp where reality of circumstance no longer matters. It's all a matter of appearance of wrong doing, not any real wrong doing, but if it can make their point, and keep them in power, it no longer matters to them if blacks are being dis-enfranchised at the voter box, when they are deliberately setting up a zero sum game for blacks via education. But it sure make's for good propaganda.

All the politicians and powermongers need to be tossed out on their ear, or nothing will ever change, not now, not with the corruption that is in place everywhere.

It doesn't matter what issue is used. It doesn't matter which party is running things. It's all for show now, and for propaganda, to stay in power, and continue scratching the right people's backs.

As best I can see, that's all it ever is about.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Wow.

Raz, there's no way that's going to go without a comment. I hold you in great esteem and recognize the gravitas and credibility you have here at iTulip. With that in mind, I'm going to sleep on it and give it the consideration it deserves. I need to read your post again a couple of times and think about what you said. Good night.

-----

To the rest of the folks reading the thread, allow me to apologize in advance as I intend to respond to Raz via private messaging. Like I said, I need to read it again a few times, but my first impression feels somewhat ... I don't know...I don't want to characterize it. Anyway I won't be commenting on anything related to Raz's posts from this point forward until we finish our conversation privately, and then probably not even after that. I trust you understand.

However, I open the floor to any and all who care a whit for their POV on Raz's opinion or mine. Or maybe we just let the thread die and anyone who does not want to be troubled by the facts and opinions I present can block me from view.

You won't hurt my feelings and I won't take it as a personal offense even if you mean it as such.

[Woodsman]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

As best I can see, that's all it ever is about.

Or, ever been about, right?

Forrest, we're going to have to agree to disagree on ACORN. I'm no ACORN partisan or expert and it's clear they were led by shady operatives on the left. But the takedown of ACORN was a GOP dirty trick and it's documented well enough for you to come to your own conclusions.

But that aside, there's not a lot of light between us based on what you just wrote. We're mostly copacetic, I think.

Man, I'm tired and feeling a bit beat up. Talk to you later.

[vt]

Re: No Respect for the Living - Propaganda and the Politics of Right and Left

Raz has always been evenhanded in these forums. A number of times he has complained about Republicans as much as Democrats.
He cites numerous articles pointing out voter fraud, and Woodsman can't cite any, instead listing a litany of past sins.

By the way it was the southern Democrats that were the segregationists in the 50's and 60's, and the Republicans were the major supporters of the civil rights act of 1965.

So stop calling Raz a racist just because he disagrees with some liberal tactics.

Both parties are the FIRE supporters, and Obama bailed out the banksters not the people.