Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

[Woodsman]

Re: Easy shot

This is still speculation.

But one thing for sure, Russia and the US/Kiev are fighting over the pipeline and gas resources in East Ukraine.

As much as it pains me to accept, the Cold War with Russia is on again. EJ is spot on that we may never know the truth. At least not in time for it to matter much. So it goes.

No 30. Corruption of news-writers (Johnson)[edit]
Published: Saturday, 11 November 1758

Stating that "money and time are the heaviest burdens of life, and that the unhappiest of all mortals are those who have more of either than they know how to use", Johnson praises those who spend their lives inventing new amusement for the rich and idle. Chief among these are the newswriters, who have multiplied greatly in recent years. Johnson identifies the necessary qualities of a journalist as "contempt of shame and indifference to truth", and says that wartime offers the perfect opportunity to exercise these.

"Among the calamities of war may be justly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates, and credulity encourages. A peace will equally leave the warriour and relater of wars destitute of employment; and I know not whether more is to be dreaded from streets filled with soldiers accustomed to plunder, or from garrets filled with scribblers accustomed to lie."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idl..._.28Johnson.29

The first casualty, and all that.

I think this topic is as radioactive as Karen Silkwood. I certainly don't believe it should be banned or censored, even if it seems that it might eventually. But I fail to see the point in pursuing it beyond what Chomsky mentioned.

The spin is in and the narrative is set. I don't see anyone here having the resources to come to any meaningful understanding of even the most basic who what where when and why's of this story. So all we are left with is expressions of opinion over whose propaganda appeals to us more.

And in choosing which narrative to accept, we inevitably are perceived as allying with one participant or another. And that can dicey real fast in wartime.

Me, I struggle with pacifism and am ashamed of myself for not having the courage of a Quaker. I don't want war, but nobody asked me what I wanted and could care less what I think about it anyway. The job of a citizen in time of war is to line up, salute and sacrifice. Dissent is treason. I certainly don't believe that, but lots of people do. Even here.

And since it has been positively established that our communications, transactions and movements are monitored and stored in perpetuity, I feel fortunate that there's still the option of turning off the propaganda and shutting up.



My energy, intellect and emotion are focused on those I love and the work of expanding that circle as wide as I can reasonably make it. Giving them up to the "public diplomacy" and "Total Information Awareness" folks to play with is a waste of precious life if you ask me.

The politicians, the technocrats and desk generals need their war. EJ said as much:

Essential Trends - Part II-B: War Economy Theory - Eric Janszen


by EJ


Published on 11-30-11 03:27 PM Number of Views: 2584



Essential Trends - Part II-B: War Economy Theory

U.S. Marines landing at Inchon as battle rages during Korean Civil War.
Location: Inchon, Korea
Date taken: 1950
Photographer: Hank Walker
Life Images

• Inside an engineered stagflation

• Post-credit bubble, pre-war economy

• Sectors of the stock market speak

As for conspiracy theories, well that's another reason why I prefer to wait for politics to become history.

[flintlock]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

this would be most helpful, especially in light of:

Malaysian Airlines confirmed that the pilot was instructed to fly at a lower altitude by the Kiev air traffic control tower

The flight path was changed.

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet was confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller “Carlos” at Kiev Borispol airport shortly after the plane was shot down, as well as eyewitnesses in Donetsk.

Not doubting you but do we know these as facts or just more reports?

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

The Russians and their supporters don't present independent reports, or any valid links as to what is happening. So far it looks like an awful mistake was made in the MH-17
crash. The plane was in a war zone.

The altitude cited has nothing to do with the shoot down; the missiles can go up to 70,000 feet.

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D507718

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D507718

Unfortunately the Sovereign nation of Ukraine, with a democratically elected leader, is being attacked by "rebels" supplied by a far more powerful neighbor, with territory taken by force.

[don]

Why It's Called Political Economy

Bloomberg reports,

The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague found that Russia is liable to pay just under half of the $114 billion sought, GML Ltd., the holding company for Yukos’s main owners, said today.

The decision showed the campaign against Yukos was “politically motivated,” GML head Tim Osborne said in London.


FT reports

The award is a landmark not just for its size – 20 times the previous record for an arbitration ruling. The tribunal also found definitively that Russia’s pursuit of Yukos and its independently-minded main shareholder, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, a decade ago was politically motivated.

Though Russia cannot appeal against the award,Moscow said it would pursue all legal avenues for trying to get it “set aside”.

Even if the ruling stands, shareholders face a tortuous battle trying to enforce it. If Moscow refuses to pay, they must pursue Russian sovereign commercial assets in the 150 countries that are party to the so-called 1958 New York Convention on enforcing arbitration awards.

One person close to Mr Putin said the Yukos ruling was insignificant in light of the bigger geopolitical stand-off over Ukraine.

“There is a war coming in Europe,” he said. “Do you really think this matters?”

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Not doubting you but do we know these as facts or just more reports?

I would classify it as reports, not facts. Though I wonder why no one has presented the communications with air traffic control yet.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

The Russians and their supporters don't present independent reports, or any valid links as to what is happening. So far it looks like an awful mistake was made in the MH-17
crash. The plane was in a war zone.

The altitude cited has nothing to do with the shoot down; the missiles can go up to 70,000 feet.

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D507718

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/07/2...6pLid%3D507718

Unfortunately the Sovereign nation of Ukraine, with a democratically elected leader, is being attacked by "rebels" supplied by a far more powerful neighbor, with territory taken by force.

I don't think lowering it to bring it in range is the argument. The argument is to make it fly an irregular pattern to draw fire.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I do not think that the BUK system has a very wide operational range. So where it was when hit might be very useful.

With a range of approx 48km, you'd be looking at potentially 7000+ square kilometer bubble around each launcher. But Russian doctrine is to have launchers and different complementary systems all overlapping and interlinked.

7000+ square kilometers is a good chunk of dirt.

From what I read MH17 may have been hit near head on, and if true, would mean it would make sense to be searching up to 48km off the nose of MH17's flight path.

In terms of accurately determining the launch site a couple of means could be used:

*US Satellites designed to detect Russian missile launches if within their capabilities

*US Satellites designed for photographic surveillance that could detect launch signature on the ground

*Radio spectrum emission intercepts from the launch vehicle and associated vehicles

One or more or the above would provide a highly accurate geographical location of the launch.

And I think it's safe to say that due to months of rising tensions and conflict in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea there would be considerable resources tasked to intelligence collection in order to feed the State Department and Executive Branch.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I don't think lowering it to bring it in range is the argument. The argument is to make it fly an irregular pattern to draw fire.

In my opinion, I would think an intentional attempt to shape MH17 to look like a tactical aircraft threat would have a very poor chance of success.

Even an intentional attempt to shape MH17 to look like a military transport aircraft would have a poor chance of success.

The reason why I write that is the flight profiles of military aircraft in a threat environment often include some quite violent maneuvering. Even military transport aircraft flight profiles can be quite vomit inducing and in my experience unlike anything you'd probably find in commercial aviation.

Is it possible MH17 was somehow used as bait?

Theoretically yes.

But I would think the moving parts all around it would provide a clear signature for port mortem investigation.

Some have used the USS Vincennes shootdown of an Iranian Airbus as an example of an unfortunate incident that incorporated aspects of the "fog of war".

Maybe it would be worth including KAL007 as another incident to put into context with MH17.

I would think the simplest explanation is probably the most likely....that when rough men are doing rough things at the behest of an arms length external actor terrible mistakes can(and do) happen.

This event was magnified by the seemingly safe and detached 1st world western normality flying a mere 6 miles overhead.

Arms length proxy actors gaining access to a very capable weapon system(where previously there have only been much less capable man portable shoulder launched SAMs) effectively meant those 1st world westerners were no longer in another world for all intents and purposes, but literally traveling thru the middle of a conflict.

[soliver]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Thanks for the continued moderation of this site.This is precisely why I continue to hang around, you bring great value and level headed leadership. Let the Doombats and conspiracy Theorists leave.

Indeed.

We will henceforth turn the News section back to its intended purpose, for level-headed discussion of events by the non-subscriber iTulip community, held to the same standard as Select News behind the paywall.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Conspiracy theories are now officially off-topic for all iTulip forum threads.

I have instructed the FREDs to re-write the titles of News threads that take a conspiracy line and delete threads that trend in that direction.

Over time the conspiracy minded will drift away, leaving the rest of us.

As for the tragic downing of MH17, the truth if it is ever known -- unlikely in time of war -- it will be that a terrible error was made by one side or the other in the conflict, with hundreds of innocent men, women, and children suffering the consequences, and the guilty party doing everything possible to cover their trail.

Our thoughts are with the families who lost loved ones.

Reflecting on this, you'd think the orgy of destruction that was WWII would be enough to teach national leaders that violence among our species is contagious and best kept contained to spectator sports and other diversions.

Putin let the nationalist genie out of the bottle for domestic political purposes. Can he get it back in?

Unlikely in my opinion for today we have a highly efficient tool of contagion of organized violence action in the form of social media.

If spectators are jumping to conclusions imagine what interested parties are doing.

[don]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

the hegemon's nightmare scenario:

(yes, I know it's from ZeroCred. Guess we'll know in time if it holds up)

Russia And Germany Allegedly Working On Secret "Gas For Land" Deal

While many were amused by this photo of Putin and Merkel during the world cup final showing Europe's two most important leaders siding side by side, some were more curious by just what the two were scheming: Thanks to the Independent, we may know the answer, and it is a doozy, because according to some it is nothing shy of a sequel to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact: allegedly Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine, one which would negotiate to trade Crimea's sovereignty for guarantees on energy security and trade. The Independent reveals that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, "hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies."

Speaking of Deutschland, a German pilot opines . . .

(from Peter Haisenko)


First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expressed of a “potentially tragic error / accident” regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit areaI recommend to click on the little picture to the left. You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefully exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

In sifting through the available images one thing stands out: All wreckage of the sections behind the cockpit are largely intact, except for the fact that only fragments of the aircraft remained . Only the cockpit part shows these peculiar marks of destruction. This leaves the examiner with an important clue. This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material. This is on account of the nose of any aircraft having to withstand the impact of a large bird at high speeds. You can see in the photo, that in this area significantly stronger aluminum alloys were being installed than in the remainder of the outer skin of the fuselage. One remembers the crash of Pan Am over Lockerbie. It was a large segment of the cockpit that due to the special architecture survived the crash in one piece. In the case of flight MH 017 it becomes abundantly clear that there also an explosion took place inside the aircraft.

Tank destroying mix of ammunitionSo what could have happened? Russia recently published radar recordings, that confirm at least one Ukrainian SU 25 in close proximity to MH 017. This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment.

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.


What “mistake” was actually being committed – and by whom?

<figure style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;"><figcaption style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">Graze on the wing</figcaption></figure>
Because the interior of a commercial aircraft is a hermetically sealed pressurized chamber, the explosions will, in split second, increase the pressure inside the cabin to extreme levels or breaking point. An aircraft is not equipped for this, it will burst like a balloon. This explains a coherent scenario. The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of construction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit. Interestingly, I found that both the high-resolution photo of the fragment of bullet riddled cockpit as well as the segment of grazed wing have in the meantime disappeared from Google Images. One can find virtually no more pictures of the wreckage, except the well known smoking ruins.


Source for all photos: Internet











Just an anecdote to share with your grandchildren on how you were there for the Big One . . . . or as is said, as history unfolds it appears banal.


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[Jam]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

The very same pictures are used to show that it was a missile hit with proximity fuse. See article posted more than a week ago here http://www.smh.com.au/world/photo-of...722-zvjur.html

[don]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Will we ever know . . .

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Will we ever know . . .

I know one thing. The US government has not released its physical evidence. The only response I get is that they generally don't release the evidence. Oh, so its normal for our government to work under a vile of secrecy? I can hardly even care about any one single incident when something very bad is considered normal because its routine. They want to control the information and that is one of the main ingredients of a police state.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

...work under a vile of secrecy..

Was that a typo, or did you just coin that phrase?
Either way I'll be using it - "vile of secrecy"

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Was that a typo, or did you just coin that phrase?
Either way I'll be using it - "vile of secrecy"

That one was a typo. Its funny actually since I do that deliberately quite a lot . I make the odd typo or malapropism, and then at times deliberately play on the old cliches` today I just thought "from bad to hearse" . Now that I think about it ,I think our politicians are the like pus, and the pale of secrete.