Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

[jk]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

even if the blackbox had radar info showing a missile approaching, i don't see how that would identify who launched it. the missiles are, i believe, maneuverable, and not ballistic, so you can't even calculate its launch point.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

even if the blackbox had radar info showing a missile approaching, i don't see how that would identify who launched it. the missiles are, i believe, maneuverable, and not ballistic, so you can't even calculate its launch point.

From what I've read on the Internet, the blackbox records information such as voice recording in the cockpit, GPS position, radio conversation (with Ukrainian air traffic controller???), changes in direction, altitude and speed of the blackbox.

I also learned from airliners.net forum that planes can continue flying for up to 10 minutes after being struck.

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

War kills innocent civilians and mistakes are made. This has happened with the U.S. ans is still happening. It has happened with troops from Ukraine. It has happened with the rebels and Russia.

At this point no one knows for sure who is responsible.

But what does stand out is the failure to secure the crash site for independent recovery of bodies and debris, thus contaminating evidence of the true cause. The utter failure of Russia and the rebels to secure the site and AND speed independent inspection teams to the site stands out. This, above all, points enormous suspicion on the rebels and their sponsor Russia.

A grave concern is that we may never find the true cause because of this criminal cover up.

[pescamaaan]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

and yet the title to this thread is "did the allies bring down MH17"

*sigh*...it's pretty disappointing that this is in the News section of the forums...what's next, 9/11 inside job thread??

[EJ]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

and yet the title to this thread is "did the allies bring down MH17"

*sigh*...it's pretty disappointing that this is in the News section of the forums...what's next, 9/11 inside job thread??

Indeed.

We will henceforth turn the News section back to its intended purpose, for level-headed discussion of events by the non-subscriber iTulip community, held to the same standard as Select News behind the paywall.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Conspiracy theories are now officially off-topic for all iTulip forum threads.

I have instructed the FREDs to re-write the titles of News threads that take a conspiracy line and delete threads that trend in that direction.

Over time the conspiracy minded will drift away, leaving the rest of us.

As for the tragic downing of MH17, the truth if it is ever known -- unlikely in time of war -- it will be that a terrible error was made by one side or the other in the conflict, with hundreds of innocent men, women, and children suffering the consequences, and the guilty party doing everything possible to cover their trail.

Our thoughts are with the families who lost loved ones.

Reflecting on this, you'd think the orgy of destruction that was WWII would be enough to teach national leaders that violence among our species is contagious and best kept contained to spectator sports and other diversions.

Putin let the nationalist genie out of the bottle for domestic political purposes. Can he get it back in?

Unlikely in my opinion for today we have a highly efficient tool of contagion of organized violence action in the form of social media.

If spectators are jumping to conclusions imagine what interested parties are doing.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

and yet the title to this thread is "did the allies bring down MH17"

*sigh*...it's pretty disappointing that this is in the News section of the forums...what's next, 9/11 inside job thread??

The title maybe somewhat offensive to some of you, and sounds like a conspiracy theory, but if you would think objectively, how it all started with the February 2014 armed coup, followed by the noticeably low key MSM news coverage on the "anti-terrorist" operation in Eastern Ukrainian.

Until MH17, the majority of people, were not aware of the severity of the civil war going on a East Ukraine.

The Malaysian airlines management did not know. The management of many other airlines did not know that a full scale war is going on with hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian reservists mobilized.

911 is an unfortunate but isolated incident by a couple dozen crazy terrorists, but this conflict has the potential to turn into something very dangerous for Europe because unlike terrorist groups, Putin can retaliate and this has the potential to bring down world markets.

Many parties are responsible for MH17, but who should hold greater responsibility, we'll need to wait for the results of the blackbox and forensic work.

[Chomsky]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Indeed.

We will henceforth turn the News section back to its intended purpose, for level-headed discussion of events by the non-subscriber iTulip community, held to the same standard as Select News behind the paywall.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Conspiracy theories are now officially off-topic for all iTulip forum threads.

I have instructed the FREDs to re-write the titles of News threads that take a conspiracy line and delete threads that trend in that direction.

Over time the conspiracy minded will drift away, leaving the rest of us.

As for the tragic downing of MH17, the truth if it is ever known -- unlikely in time of war -- it will be that a terrible error was made by one side or the other in the conflict, with hundreds of innocent men, women, and children suffering the consequences, and the guilty party doing everything possible to cover their trail.

Our thoughts are with the families who lost loved ones.

Reflecting on this, you'd think the orgy of destruction that was WWII would be enough to teach national leaders that violence among our species is contagious and best kept contained to spectator sports and other diversions.

Putin let the nationalist genie out of the bottle for domestic political purposes. Can he get it back in?

Unlikely in my opinion for today we have a highly efficient tool of contagion of organized violence action in the form of social media.

If spectators are jumping to conclusions imagine what interested parties are doing.

How about a question that is relevant to the thesis: Will the downed jet/Ukrainian conflict lead to a spike in the oil price big enough to bring about a recession?

[Slimprofits]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

How about a question that is relevant to the thesis: Will the downed jet/Ukrainian conflict lead to a spike in the oil price big enough to bring about a recession?

Well I thought it was interesting to note that even before this jet was shot down, the topics of ISIS and Iraq quickly re-exited the 24/7 news cycle and oil price futures fell back to where they had been, before that crisis grabbed everyone's attention.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

How about a question that is relevant to the thesis: Will the downed jet/Ukrainian conflict lead to a spike in the oil price big enough to bring about a recession?

If gas supply is reduced, will countries use more oil? Or can they use coal instead?

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...rks-both-ways/

[loweyecue]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Oops?

Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that:

• RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
• RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
• RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17

Obviously, if there is proof that this is so, aside from CIA-created YouTube clips, these would deal another unpleasant blow to US foreign policy.

The Russian defense ministry during its press conference which concluded minutes ago:



Here is the full clip of the Russian ministry releasing its own forensic analysis of what happened to flight MH17 (with English translation).

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/KSpeo5RcQQo?feature=player_embedded" frameBorder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash:

• RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax

The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday.

"These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said.

Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday:

• RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK

And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17:



Here is a screengrab of a Su-25 fighter jet detected close to MH17 before crash.


As RT reports,

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

And asks for US proof of their accusations:

• RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
• RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
• RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
• DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"

And went on to rebuke all the Twitter photos created by Maidan to 'prove' the BUKs were moving in Russian hands.
Summing it all up, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has 10 questions for Ukraine (google translated)

The global public expects a speedy and independent investigation into the causes of the disaster Malaysian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine.

In order to conduct an objective investigation of possible leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has ased ten questions to the Ukrainian side.

1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?

2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?

3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?

4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?

5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?

6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?

7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?

8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?

9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?

10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev.

Unfortunately, there has been no response by the Ukraine side to these questions so far. We expect that there will be some answers.
* * *
Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda.

We expect many of these questions to be answered once the contents of flight MH17's black box are revealed and/or when Ukraine finally releases an undoctored version of the Air Traffic control recording with the doomed flight.

I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but why wouldn't Ukraine move SAMs to the Russian border? The militia may not have planes, but the openly hostile Russians do. Having said that, I think Kiev still stands to benefit more than the militia to shoot a plane down and blame it on the other side.

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

"Officials describe the sensitive information, ranging from satellite images to social media analysis, as evidence that Moscow trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the downed jet."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

National Security

U.S. discloses intelligence on downing of Malaysian jet

Images released by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence claim to show the movements of a surface-to-air missile launcher, and evidence of a buildup of Russian military activity in Ukraine.

U.S. intelligence officials released these satellite images of a Russian military base near Rostov, showing an increase in vehicular activity since June. They identified the base as being a main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence
By Greg Miller July 22 at 7:24 PM

The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.

Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites.

The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine even after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which killed 298 civilians.

Analysts at the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are continuing to examine information about the crash, but U.S. officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.

Senior U.S. intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.


Intelligence documents show the location of the downed jet. (U.S. Intelligence Community)
“That is not a plausible scenario,” said one senior U.S. official, who noted that American intelligence agencies have confirmed that Ukraine had no antiaircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck.


The official was one of three senior U.S. intelligence officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity during a briefing arranged for reporters in Washington to provide more detailed information on the assertions made by administration officials in recent days, as well as to rebut Russian claims.

“We are seeing a full-court press by the Russian government to instruct affiliated or friendly elements to manipulate the media environment to spread Russia’s version of the story,” the official said. “What this looks like again is a classic case of blaming the victims.”

The U.S. intelligence officials, who included experts on Russia’s military and its relationship with separatists in Ukraine, said they do not know the identities or even the nationalities — whether Russian or possibly defectors from Ukraine’s military — of those who launched the missile from an SA-11 surface-to-air battery.

Nor have U.S. spy agencies reached any conclusions on the motive for the attack, except to say that the reaction among separatists recorded on social media indicates they believed they were targeting a Ukrainian military transport plane.

In part, officials said, that may have been because the rebels operating the missile battery were poorly trained and did not have access to other radar systems and equipment that ordinarily accompany an SA-11 system and are designed to help distinguish military targets from civilian planes.

U.S. officials said earlier that they had seen “indications” of advanced antiaircraft systems being moved into eastern Ukraine from Russia and being removed after the jet was shot down.


Images claim to show the movements of a surface-to-air missile launcher and build up of Russian military activity across the border.
Intelligence officials said spy agencies were not aware that an SA-11 system was in eastern Ukraine until the attack had happened. They declined to answer questions about whether warnings about the Russian military buildup over the past month had been shared with international aviation authorities.

The officials also declined to provide more details on the satellites and other sophisticated sensors that enabled them to trace the path of the missile, citing concerns about compromising secret U.S. capabilities.

Still, the administration released information that had been kept secret until Tuesday, providing the most explicit illustration to date of the extent to which it has mobilized intelligence resources to track the conflict in Ukraine.

In particular, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released images taken of the Russian military facility near Rostov over the span of a month, before-and-after slides that officials said showed a substantial buildup after Russia had pledged to pull back from Ukraine.

Russia has gone to significant lengths to disguise that flow of weaponry, the officials said, by delivering equipment that matches the inventory of Ukraine’s military. In some cases, the officials said, Russia appears to have pulled aging and inactive tanks out of storage because shipping newer ones would make it obvious that Russian arms were flowing into Ukraine.

“We think they’re continuing to do it” in the aftermath of the strike on the Malaysian aircraft, one of the intelligence officials said.


Russia appears to have “felt compelled to increase the level of support” for separatists, the official said,because Ukraine’s military has become increasingly effective against the rebels, retaking the city of Slovyansk.

In recent days, the Ukrainian government has posted online what it has described as incriminating communications among rebel leaders and units, calls and radio transmissions apparently intercepted by Kiev.

The U.S. officials said they have confirmed the authenticity of some of those recordings, including one in which the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane at the time the Malaysian aircraft was struck.

Analysis comparing that audio clip to other confirmed recordings of Strelkov’s voice “confirmed these were authentic conversations,” one of the officials said.

The officials noted that separatists had shot down aircraft on about a dozen other occasions over the past month — mostly helicopters and Ukraine military planes flying far below the 33,000-foot altitude at which the Malaysian flight was hit. Ukraine’s military, by contrast, is focused on the ground threat posed by separatists and has yet to fire on an aircraft, the officials said.

U.S. intelligence analysts have examined photos from the crash site and identified damage consistent with that caused by an SA-11 missile, officials said, but they stressed that such analysis is preliminary.

The briefing also revealed the extent to which U.S. spy agencies are relying on Twitter, Facebook and other social-media sites to monitor the conflict. The officials cited verbal exchanges among rebels posted on YouTube indicating separatists arriving at the scene of the wreckage were surprised to discover civilians.

“If you listen to YouTube you get that: ‘We’re finding civilians,’ ” a senior U.S. intelligence official said. Partly for that reason, the official said, “the most plausible explanation to me is [it was] a mistake.”

http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-o...ightTopStories

[sutro]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Even though I don't rule out that the rebels are behind the crime since all "evidence" had been collected by the Ukrainan government and presented within "a few hours after the incident", but the events leading to the incident and what happened immediately after can't make one wonder if this whole incident was planned and orchestrated.

1. Kiev deployed surface to air missile system near to the city of Dotnsek. What are these missiles for when there's rebels had no aircraft?

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...e-systems.html

2. "Recordings of rebels telephone calls" appeared on social media hours after the plane was struck. In all military operations, these recordings would be sent to the HQ for investigation but this didn't happen. In all likelihood, these recordings appeared to have been pre-recorded as part of the orchestrated operation.

3. Why did MH17 deviated from the usual flight path that was south of East Ukraine?

Warning: Graphic.

I think this report backs up the idea that the shootdown was a mistake.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0PY33O20140723

[pescamaaan]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

thank you very much EJ. these changes will certainly help to preserve the integrity of iTulip. there's may be a time and place for "those types" of discussions, but iTulip is not the forum.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

EJ, please help to delete this topic. There's no point discussing a subject which the majority don't want to talk about. My apologies if this made any of you upset. I just couldn't comprehend what led to MH17. Now I know the truth will somehow be uncovered in a matter of time, as it had always been. Thanks.

[verdo]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Indeed.

We will henceforth turn the News section back to its intended purpose, for level-headed discussion of events by the non-subscriber iTulip community, held to the same standard as Select News behind the paywall.

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Conspiracy theories are now officially off-topic for all iTulip forum threads.

I have instructed the FREDs to re-write the titles of News threads that take a conspiracy line and delete threads that trend in that direction.

Over time the conspiracy minded will drift away, leaving the rest of us.

Thank you...a thousand times over. One of the main reasons I've stopped posting here as much as i use to is solely due to what you just mentioned here. If it isn't some topic about the "insights" of Paul Craig Roberts, its about how libertarians/tea party conservatives are the sole targets of every U.S. government conspiracy you can cook up. It just gets dull to read through, to the point where I would rather be doing almost anything else versus engaging in discussions here. I support this move 110%