Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I started this thread because this falsehood, whether intentional or not is very dangerous, even more dangerous than WMD, and can lead to a major conflict.

Regardless of who had been the responsible, what is certain by now is we can't take the social media "evidence" seriously.

I am dumb founded on how lightly this is being taken. I know for a fact the media made a coordinated accusation that it was Russia within hours, and I know for a fact it was impossible to prove in so short a time. Nothing since then has convinced me they are making any amends, and I just can't believe that the story has been dropped over the last few weeks is not telling. I know this is wrong regardless of what actually happened. These are nuclear armed powers...

[jk]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

But you clearly don't think I should. If I a happen to not take a popular position it may be branded conspiratorial. So then I can't express my thoughts and opinions . If that is what this site will become then no thanks. I have no reason to be here.

you can and will post what you want. it will not be my decision whether posts or threads are permitted here under the new "no conspiracy theories" policy. my sense is that this kind of thread, along with the threads that devolve into political theory, libertarian vs keynsian vs austrian political-economics, and so on, generate a lot of heat but not much light. ultimately it appears to me that in these matters no one learns anything and no one is ever convinced of an idea that they didn't have in the first place. if you have a counter-example to this observation of mine, i'd love to see it pointed out. it might restore my faith in humanity.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Yes the U.S. and western media does "color" the news, but less so than Russia and other nations.

How does one accurately measure this?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

But you clearly don't think I should. If I a happen to not take a popular position it may be branded conspiratorial. So then I can't express my thoughts and opinions . If that is what this site will become then no thanks. I have no reason to be here.

But you have to concede that there is a crystal clear difference between a position that is unpopular and a position that is highly unlikely, or even virtually implausible.

By highly unlikely and virtually implausible I mean a plan to use a low performance aircraft(SU25) designed for close air support to conduct a high altitude interception mission above its service altitude performance ceiling necessitating a double interception: hitting it with a short distance dogfight missile to bring it down low enough for a snapshot gun kill as it falls in altitude. All while the radios and cockpit flight recorders are still functioning.

The SU25 is like a concrete truck trying to catch a Mercedes S class on the Autobahn.

The most likely reason for the SU25 in the air in proximity is to conduct what it was designed for: low altitude close air support mission against Russian backed separatists.

Two things I see worth investing time in:

Missile warhead design and performance(would help explain key differences in AA8 and SA11) why AA8 hit would be highly likely to include cockpit voice intercepts post impact, and why SA11 warhead size and design could both easily result in that cockpit shrapnel pattern as well as instant total aircraft kill.

Focus on how this impacts iTulip investment thesis via direct and indirect geopolitical ramifications on global markets and related government policy.

I would suggest emphasis for all on the latter.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

How does one accurately measure this?

I've been following reports on CNN, BBC, Aljazeera, RT for MH17 for the past 3 weeks.

RT and CNN are just as biased in their reporting with respect to MH17. BBC tend to be a little more neutral and worth following. I read RT because Russian reporters tend to have better access to rebel held territories. But you have to be able to pick out the slivers of facts from Russian state propaganda.

[Shakespear]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

my sense is that this kind of thread, along with the threads that devolve into political theory, libertarian vs keynsian vs austrian political-economics, and so on, generate a lot of heat but not much light. ultimately it appears to me that in these matters no one learns anything and no one is ever convinced of an idea that they didn't have in the first place. if you have a counter-example to this observation of mine, i'd love to see it pointed out. it might restore my faith in humanity.

I agree, most people will stay with their starting positions, but maybe a little toe will start to move to the other side.

The positive of continuing such a dialog (I'm sure there is a limit and a thread will find it, we are not idiots on here) is that there is a chance that information not commonly found will be brought forth for all too study. I have found some good stuff from lakemondes which lit my light bulb regarding some things. If I was to just get my dose of information from reading USA TODAY, New York Times and watching CNN/Fox then my friend I would be poorly served in knowing what is going on. Case in point being the famous Judith Miller Case or the famous Cheney "I got the evidence about Chad". Only by reading what was said across the pond in the Die Welt, Der Spiegel, Le Monde Diplomatique and yes even that evil Russian paper Pravda., was I able to sort out what was missing in the "regularly schedule programming" served to me in the US. It was thanks to comments by people who were cutting across the grain of commonly excepted view point.

In the two cases I mentioned above a far far more balanced picture was being served at the time on the BBC, which since then has gone .......

"no conspiracy theories" policy

Slapping a label (who's meme has been well emotionalized and conditioned) like this on a subject as important as this case is ,I think, is not a good idea. Most of the commonts on the subject are civil so what is the problem ? Has it gotten longer than expected and should be buried because it is not on CNN/FOX ?

Check out how LONG this subject lasted here,
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...6131379/1/#207
Granted, it is an airline forum but NEWS is NEWS.

Well heck, this is not my website so will just leave it to those that know better to know better

[Woodsman]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

But you have to concede that there is a crystal clear difference between a position that is unpopular and a position that is highly unlikely, or even virtually implausible.

By highly unlikely and virtually implausible I mean a plan to use a low performance aircraft(SU25) designed for close air support to conduct a high altitude interception mission above its service altitude performance ceiling necessitating a double interception: hitting it with a short distance dogfight missile to bring it down low enough for a snapshot gun kill as it falls in altitude. All while the radios and cockpit flight recorders are still functioning.

The SU25 is like a concrete truck trying to catch a Mercedes S class on the Autobahn.

I think we confuse the Frogfoot's mission with its capabilities. Its mission is CAS, but the plane is hardly a sluggard when it comes to performance. The specs from Sukhoi are on the web.

Service ceiling (without external ordnance and stores), km	17.3
Maximum flight speed at sea level (without external ordnance and stores), km/h	1,350
Max Mach (without external ordnance and stores)	2.00 (1.9**)

That's 56,000+ feet, 800+ MPH at sea level, and Mach 1.9 straight out. There must be a doghouse chart for the Su25 somewhere in googleland and I'd wager cash money on a 1 v 2 engagement between a SU25 and any 300+ pass airliner in production since the Comet, your pick .

The late, great aviation author and historian Jeff Ethel flew the Su25 and spoke well of its performance here in a documentary from back in the good old days when we were riding high and tensions between east and west were at their lowest ebb.

Remember when The History Channel had programming about history?

Anyway, I think a Frogfoot is fully capable of delivering one of the many AA missiles it can carry and following up with a coup de grâce using the 30mm cannon on any airliner in service today. The SU-25 is a heck of a versatile plane and hate to see the old bird get slagged.

I've been clear about how pointless I think this thread is. I can't get behind censorship of ideas I don't like, but I sure as heck won't shed a tear to see it come down or get locked. I don't know and no one will know the truth and it will be as relevant as arguing about the color of the uniforms at Gleiwitz. At the very least send it Rant and Rave where it belongs.

[Shakespear]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I don't know and no one will know the truth and it will be as relevant as arguing about the color of the uniforms at Gleiwitz. At the very least send it Rant and Rave where it belongs.

We will know the truth because eventually the truth will surface from the pit of slimy lies. The case of KAL-007 saw the light. The Mossadegh Take Down in Iran finally saw the light.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB428/

Across town, meanwhile, the C.I.A.—through the conduit of Malcolm Byrne, the director of research at the National Security Archive—was confirming its role in what was most definitely a joint U.S.-British intelligence operation: the August, 1953, coup that overthrew Mohammad Mossadegh, Iran’s populist prime minister, and reinstated the Shah, a convenient puppet for Washington and London who was to remain in power for another twenty-six years, before fleeing in January of 1979. Six decades to the day since a pro-Shah mob, led by Iranian agents recruited by the U.S. and the British, marched on Mossadegh’s residence, Byrne published extracts from internal C.I.A. documents that, for the first time, explicitly acknowled how the agency masterminded the change of government in Tehran.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-c...egh-to-snowden

I'm an optimist on this

[Woodsman]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

We will know the truth because eventually the truth ill surface ....

Thanks for sharing the link from GW. I'm pleased to see the record opening up.

Of course, when I say never I mean for me and the rest of us geezers. 60 years since the day is sufficiently forever, as I'll be worm food by then.

Send it to Rant and Rave.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I'd also like to point out Western media caught red handed with anti -Russian propaganda that has helped set the fertile ground for yet more of it.

This is the European point of view which does not spare Russia any blame, but the immediate provocation of the war was clearly started by Georgia. One did not find that at all in Western media.

Does it matter? Of course it does because one has to wonder why Russia is a primary target of the West. Russia appears to be the brains between the Bric union IMHO. Without Russia there can be no BRIC union. They are the only ones with a military industrial complex to rival the West.



http://euobserver.com/foreign/28747


In fact if you relied on Western media you would not even know its ex-president is now a fugitive of his own country for his for not particularly Western ideals of shutting down a critical press.

http://news.az/articles/region/91212

And what did he do with his now government controlled media?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nvasion-report

Switching on their TV sets at 8pm on Saturday, Georgians were greeted with incredible news – Russia had invaded. The pro-government Imedi TV station reported that Russian tanks were once more trundling into Georgia. Not only that, but the country's pro-western leader Mikheil Saakashvili had been murdered, the station said.


For the next half an hour there were scenes of absolute panic, as the mobile network collapsed, Georgians spilled on to the streets, and friends and relatives desperately tried to reach each other and seek out information. In fact, they needn't have bothered.

The report, it turned out, was a hoax. The Kremlin hadn't invaded and Saakashvili, it emerged, was very much alive. Not since Orson Welles persuaded Americans that the Martians had landed, during his hysteria-sparking War of the Worlds radio broadcast, had a whole nation been so duped.

Today furious opposition politicians denounced the TV stunt as dangerous and irresponsible. Angry residents in the capital, Tbilisi, gathered outside the offices of Imedi TV, hours after the report flashed erroneously around the world. Saakashvili, however, was unapologetic. He declared that the threat of Russian attack remained "very realistic".

And then the irony that The Guardian just can't help saying the threat from Russia is very real. Yes, if it become a Western puppet of destabilization again it is.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

I've been clear about how pointless I think this thread is.

I don't mind if this site wants to focus on the basis of a subject matter. If itulip is about needle point then I don't think arc welding fits. So as a general receptacle for any theory not related to global finance, I get it. Ya don't see me opening up many new threads of any kind. I think you can more or less address any single individual who does so habitually. However there are things that sometimes are tough to call. If the US has lost its moral perspective, and is irrationally lashing out, it might be due a new international monetary rival; then its a tough call to make. Perhaps the rulers are willing to do anything in the face of what they see as an existential threat to them. But I am not going to take the position that it needs to be blocked because it does not fit popular opinion.

[Shakespear]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Perhaps the rulers are willing to do anything in the face of what they see as an existential threat to them. But I am not going to take the position that it needs to be blocked because it does not fit popular opinion.

Going against the grain with a 24/7 Media Machine is like being an ant and fighting a gorilla.

The only hope, IMHO, I suspect is that a person's curiosity unexpectedly moves him/her down a road less traveled where he/she experiences an existential shock showing him/her that he/she is being lied to. Otherwise it is Slumber Land and nothing else.

The mind is a powerful things about which most know little.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

It has been more than 1 month since the black box has been handed over to investigators, still nothing out of it.

[FrankL]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

It has been more than 1 month since the black box has been handed over to investigators, still nothing out of it.

Not expected for another week: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/745580

As for the entire discussion on whether threads that build on 'possible but improbable' or 'extremely unlikely or impossible' premise:

They serve a purpose... as the layman observer might not be able to differentiate between the two until someone with expert knowledge weighs in and 'debunks' certain ideas or provides their insight.

The necessity of separating the noise from the data still applies, but that goes for analysing any source of information.

[Shakespear]

The Tapes

I see this thread still has some fire.

On ZH a commenter pointed this out
https://twitter.com/ArianeDaladier/s...40748129538048

after some translation games I found this info

7. Will the Dutch Safety Board be publicly releasing the content from the Cockpit Voice Recorder and the Flight Data Recorder?

Investigative materials and sources of information used by the Dutch Safety Board in its investigations are protected by law. Only information relevant to determining the cause of the MH17 crash will be included in the final report. The available investigative information will not be released publicly in their entirety, except for what is published in the final report. This is in accordance with the Dutch Safety Board Act (Rijkswet Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid) and the ICAO agreement.

http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoe...ght-mh17#fasen
Being an engineer I do not believe in conspiracy theories