Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Nice find, but I don't think his verbal testimony alone can absolve the rebels of responsibility. Only the blackbox data can do that.

Meanwhile, there's some close-up images of the damage inflicted on the cockpit on the Internet. It should be pretty obvious to an experienced military person if these are missile shrapnel, ball bearings or 20mm cannon rounds?

I do not think it proves anything, but I do think its at least as plausible which is really getting to my point. Its obvious that our media is in lock step with our government. Even if this were a flimsy theory presented by a bunch of quacks, wouldn't a sensationalist media ride this pony to the hilt? Other than a few outposts our press is clearly controlled. Its truly frightening to me that its completely blacked out.

[don]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Does anybody doubt that US Intel knows exactly what happened.

The silence is damning enough . . . .

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

There is U.S. intelligence available:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-at-mh17.html

The litany of conspiracy spinners that would try to pin this terrible accident on Kiev, when their own planes have been shot down too is idiotic.

The U.S. is not saying the Russians pulled the trigger; they are saying it was an accident.

The fable of trying to blame the Ukraine government sounds like apologists for Russia are behaving like conspiracy weirdos such as Alex Jones on the right.

The attempt to say someone is hiding something is absurd. Look how long it takes for the FAA to determine the actual cause of U.S. domestic air crashes.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asi...ion-explainer/

[Shakespear]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Does anybody doubt that US Intel knows exactly what happened.

The silence is damning enough . . . .

[Woodsman]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

The attempt to say someone is hiding something is absurd. Look how long it takes for the FAA to determine the actual cause of U.S. domestic air crashes.

What happened, VT? You had it all solved in the first hours after it happened. Just look at the certainty you exhibited on the day:

The Rebels bragged about shooting down a plane Thursday, but when they realized they shot MH 17 down they deleted the messages. Fortunately they were captured in screen shots.

Now the Russians have tried to plant a false story of Ukraine jets shooting the plane down air to air, thinking it was Putin's plane, which was in the vicinity minutes earlier. U.S. intelligence documented that the missile was surface to air.

Plus as said above, the rebels are trying to destroy evidence.

Clearly a tragic mistake in a war zone where a civilian plane should not have been. But the Russians are trying to trying different ways to blame Kiev.

In your first post on the matter and mere hours after the event you were laying blame. As the wreckage was still smoking you 1) determined it was an accident 2) determined who was responsible for it 3) determined the cause 4) and detected a Russian cover up. Now you shame others for rushing to judgment?

I think your credibility on this is abysmally low, but please do carry on sir.

[Shakespear]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

There is U.S. intelligence available:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-at-mh17.html

The litany of conspiracy spinners that would try to pin this terrible accident on Kiev, when their own planes have been shot down too is idiotic.

VT, I'm sure you are a nice guy with your own particual point of view, hence please do not take this personally. I've been there (that might sound like you are not where you should be, sorry) and thanks to Bush Jr. in 2001 I experienced a catharsis which led me to turn my point of view 180 degrees around and not be there any more.

So lets pars closer the article which you say is "US intelligence" which is as good as gold proof. What do we find,

Moscow has been lying about what happened to the airliner but one thing it is saying may actually be true: It wasn’t a Russian who pulled the trigger.

Wow, now that is reassuring. It wasn't the ruskiees.

The U.S. intelligence community’s best guess

"Guess" - why guess ? Where is the radar data? Where is the satellite data because in such a sensitive area "All Eyes Are On The Action". I am certain of this. Why? Simple, to help the good guys from Kiev to figure out how to win and thus our satellites would be watching those sneaky Ruskies. :-)

leading theory of America’s intelligence agencies is true,

They only have theories ????? On 911 there were no theories. There was certainty. Hence in this situation they should have in depth analysis from THEIR best available data. Theories sounds likes they have no clue. The "best" theory could be wrong as we don't see anything to help us understand how they came up with this. YOUTUBE as data is BS and you should know that. Decision which could lead us to go to war will be based on Twitter and Youtube data ?????????????????????????? Come on buddy, we are being fed baloney !!!!

Leading officials and experts have suggested

They have and will suggest anything they like. Show us the data and then "suggest" to us how you came up with that interpretation. We see NO DATA so far, not even that none sensitive type that they have at the airport called radar signal data that is stored each day. Ahh, that video on Youtube of the moving missile vehicle is the data??? HOW do we know who is driving it ? Maybe it is the Kiev boys driving their stuff around ? When was THE VIDEO made. It is all "working hypothesis" and not theories. Theories are backed up by DATA and we have none that ties it to the separatists. So far we only have what was on fightaware and what the Russians made available.

Russia chooses equipment that matches what the Ukrainian military uses in order to provide separatists with some level of deniability.

I can turn this around and it could be possible,

Ukrain chooses equipment that matches what the Russian military uses in order to provide ITSELF with some level of deniability.

Simple and not outside the realm of Possibility.

although the U.S. intelligence community can’t say for sure who operated the system that fired the missile. Regardless, senior officials said, Moscow bears some responsibility.

This is aa weak as it can be. THAT IS WHY we are hearing nothing now.

Notice that we also have NO INDEPENDENT investigation of WHO was shooting at the poor people on Majdan. Sorry, but "It was Janukovich's Berkut." is not enough. What about the words of the Estonian Foreign Minister to Ms. Ashton ????

So I will just say VT that WE STILL DO NOT have the data and we can NOT assign the blame. And for sure, the US is not providing ANYTHING to clear up this situation. Talking officials is about as good as Colin Powell at the UN regarding Iraq and the WMD. At least Colin showed us the evidence,
http://hadeeqa.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/colin.jpg
and even got a prize later for a job well done
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/2013/March/130214/130314-iraq-where-now-powell.380;380;7;70;0.jpg

Three days after Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash landed at San Francisco International Airport with the loss of two lives, there is still no official explanation for what caused the incident.

There you go. Three days and still not sure.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

There is U.S. intelligence available:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-at-mh17.html

The litany of conspiracy spinners that would try to pin this terrible accident on Kiev, when their own planes have been shot down too is idiotic.

The U.S. is not saying the Russians pulled the trigger; they are saying it was an accident.

The fable of trying to blame the Ukraine government sounds like apologists for Russia are behaving like conspiracy weirdos such as Alex Jones on the right.

The attempt to say someone is hiding something is absurd. Look how long it takes for the FAA to determine the actual cause of U.S. domestic air crashes.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/09/us/asi...ion-explainer/

Sorry but this is not acceptable. Social media and evidence provided by Ukraine is not US intelligence. And they are not revealing evidence I know they have. We had assets in the Black Sea during the incident. So either they are not showing what they have or are grossly incompetent.

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

This is not just social media and evidence provided by Ukraine:

Simply read the link cited:


"The U.S. intelligence community has used both social media as well as its own technical intelligence to determine that the missile was fired by an SA-11 system from a separatist-controlled area of eastern Ukraine and therefore was controlled by the separatists, the intelligence officials said."

"The NSA and CIA conducted voice analyses on some of those released intercepts and determined (by comparing those calls to previous voice samples), that at least some of the Ukrainian separatists on the intercepts were in fact who the claimed to be."

"Also, the U.S. has watched Russia move large convoys of heavy weapons across the border into eastern Ukraine, including tanks, armored personnel carriers, rocket launchers, and much more, the officials said. The heavy equipment deliveries to the separatists increased in the weeks before the crash and continue after the disaster. The bulk of the equipment comes from the Rostov training center."

This is U.S. intelligence.

Yes the U.S. and western media does "color" the news, but less so than Russia and other nations. Does anyone deny that it talks time to analyze the crash?

If one is to believe the Russian and its allies part of the story, why was access to the crash site denied to independent observers?? This is the smoking gun of complicit behavior by the Separtists.

[vt]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Then how do you explain the denial of access to the crash site by independent observers? How do you explain the tampering with crash evidence?

Why is an attempt by the title of this thread to point possible blame to the U.S.allies when you claim rushing to judgement?

It is possible that the Ukraine shot down the plane and it is possible separtists did so.

This thread started as a conspiracy theory, not a credible investigation. There have been too many attempts from the Russian side to create different stories, each more unbelievable than the previous.

Why are published theories from reputable news sources less credible than the attempted blame that was established with the start of this thread by Russian supporters?

[jk]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

this discussion illustrates the good sense in banning all future conspiracy threads.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

This is not just social media and evidence provided by Ukraine:

Simply read the link cited:


"The U.S. intelligence community has used both social media as well as its own technical intelligence to determine that the missile was fired by an SA-11 system from a separatist-controlled area of eastern Ukraine and therefore was controlled by the separatists, the intelligence officials said."

"The NSA and CIA conducted voice analyses on some of those released intercepts and determined (by comparing those calls to previous voice samples), that at least some of the Ukrainian separatists on the intercepts were in fact who the claimed to be."

"Also, the U.S. has watched Russia move large convoys of heavy weapons across the border into eastern Ukraine, including tanks, armored personnel carriers, rocket launchers, and much more, the officials said. The heavy equipment deliveries to the separatists increased in the weeks before the crash and continue after the disaster. The bulk of the equipment comes from the Rostov training center."

This is U.S. intelligence.

Yes the U.S. and western media does "color" the news, but less so than Russia and other nations. Does anyone deny that it talks time to analyze the crash?

If one is to believe the Russian and its allies part of the story, why was access to the crash site denied to independent observers?? This is the smoking gun of complicit behavior by the Separtists.

Saying you have evidence is not evidence.

[touchring]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Then how do you explain the denial of access to the crash site by independent observers? How do you explain the tampering with crash evidence?

It is pretty obvious that the independent observers are denied access because of the campaign in the East, in particular the artillery shelling by government forces. If military action stops, there's no reason why observers can't reach the crash site. Also, if you noticed, military action in that area was intensified immediately after the observers arrived, strangely enough. And strange enough, after the observers left, fighting shifted to Donetsk.

Why is an attempt by the title of this thread to point possible blame to the U.S.allies when you claim rushing to judgement?

This thread is to provide an alternative view, a foreign view in fact, as even from the start, there's a lot of doubt of culpability among Malaysians. On the first week, I noted that a poll on a prominent Malaysian forum showed that only about half of people believed that rebels are responsible. Today, almost everyone thinks that there's a deliberate cover up.

It is possible that the Ukraine shot down the plane and it is possible separtists did so.

That's my opinion as well, since we have not seen any concrete evidence as yet, either side could be responsible.

Does anybody doubt that US Intel knows exactly what happened.

The silence is damning enough . . . .

My personal opinion is that the US administration had been "misled" by social media, and did not have the smoking gun evidence claimed. After more evidence turned up, in particular the black box, they realized the mistake, and so are keeping quiet.

Social media and media is a powerful thing, it could fool both people and government - even the government that controls the media can be fooled by their own media - as in a person can be fooled by his own falsehood over time if it gets repeated over and over again, you start to believe in your own lies.

I started this thread because this falsehood, whether intentional or not is very dangerous, even more dangerous than WMD, and can lead to a major conflict.

Regardless of who had been the responsible, what is certain by now is we can't take the social media "evidence" seriously.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

this discussion illustrates the good sense in banning all future conspiracy threads.

Who decides, you? Ya know how many people think the economic ideas at itulip are wackjobbry? The pejorative, conspiracy theory, is easy to spot. It focuses on theory and not basic facts. If this site is just going to tow the line of the cool in crowd, you will not need to worry about me anymore that's for sure.

[jk]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

Who decides, you? Ya know how many people think the economic ideas at itulip are wackjobbry? The pejorative, conspiracy theory, is easy to spot. It focuses on theory and not basic facts. If this site is just going to tow the line of the cool in crowd, you will not need to worry about me anymore that's for sure.

i post my own opinions and thoughts. i imagine the same applies to you.


edit: btw, i imagine that in fact who will decide will be ej and "fred." also, i cannot "worry about" you "anymore" when i haven't "worried" about you in the first place. this is not meant to be disrespectful of you, as i don't much "worry" about anyone around here. in general, this is a site for polite and fact-based discussion of economics. i like it that way.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Did the allies bring down Malaysian Airline MH17?

i post my own opinions and thoughts. i imagine the same applies to you.

But you clearly don't think I should. If I a happen to not take a popular position it may be branded conspiratorial. So then I can't express my thoughts and opinions . If that is what this site will become then no thanks. I have no reason to be here.