Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

[Camtender]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

Article in China


http://www.popfinancing.com.cn/gupia.../08-14270.html

[skyson]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

And the itulip.com's official position IS.....(drum rolling): that is just another conspiracy theory.:eek::eek:

[FRED]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

And the itulip.com's official position IS.....(drum rolling): that is just another conspiracy theory.:eek::eek:

The fact that this conspiracy story is getting picked up worldwide means what?

$134.5 billion in fake government securities: Case closed, sans tin foil hat June 23, 2009, iTulip

Why did the government take so long to comment? Why did government representatives say so little? Why were the perpetrators Japanese? Why did the Italian authorities let them go? Why has the mainstream media said so little about it? No secrets revealed! More …

[radon]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

And the itulip.com's official position IS.....(drum rolling): that is just another conspiracy theory.:eek::eek:

Shorting into the thinly traded futures market in order to force a margin call on someone and take their money is a tactic as old as time. Why is there an assumption that everyone trading options either expects or desires physical delivery of the underlying metal? There is no conspiracy here except that the general public has a misunderstanding of contracts, counter party risk, and the markets in which they are bought and sold.

As for tungsten, I'll believe it when a jeweller or manufacturer ends up with a bar of it. Many companies buy gold and use it, so why we havn't seen any tungsten bars in the wild? Maybe that is because it is, like most conspiracy theories, complete fiction.

I have been hearing from gold bugs that the exchange is going to blow up on expiration day for years now. They scream loud when gold goes up and louder when it goes down. No matter what happens they keep screaming buy buy buy and the end of COMEX is near. Who knows? Perhaps one day they could be right, but even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day. And gold bug advice is not good for trading.

They need to take some of their bullion and beat it into thin sheets then cover their head with it. It might help. The conspiracy BS sells web hits, nothing more.

[metalman]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

Shorting into the thinly traded futures market in order to force a margin call on someone and take their money is a tactic as old as time. Why is there an assumption that everyone trading options either expects or desires physical delivery of the underlying metal? There is no conspiracy here except that the general public has a misunderstanding of contracts, counter party risk, and the markets in which they are bought and sold.

As for tungsten, I'll believe it when a jeweller or manufacturer ends up with a bar of it. Many companies buy gold and use it, so why we havn't seen any tungsten bars in the wild? Maybe that is because it is, like most conspiracy theories, complete fiction.

I have been hearing from gold bugs that the exchange is going to blow up on expiration day for years now. They scream loud when gold goes up and louder when it goes down. No matter what happens they keep screaming buy buy buy and the end of COMEX is near. Who knows? Perhaps one day they could be right, but even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day. And gold bug advice is not good for trading.

They need to take some of their bullion and beat it into thin sheets then cover their head with it. It might help. The conspiracy BS sells web hits, nothing more.

well said.

by my count this is the 24,345th bogus gold conspiracy theory since 1981 when the fed took rates up to 20% & gold died... it'll turn out like the 24,344 before it... fade away... no follow-up... no proof... on to the next one... as bad as the msm... or worse.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

They need to take some of their bullion and beat it into thin sheets then cover their head with it. It might help. The conspiracy BS sells web hits, nothing more.

I see you earned a round of applause from metalman for this post. Good work.

This Faux debate between the "respected" and the "conspiracy nuts" is distracting us from a better understanding.

The problems we face, in the gold markets as well as others, are more serious than the respected allow, and more subtle than the conspiracy nuts portray.

Perhaps we should quit watching the iTulip variation of a weekend football game and continue our studies and learning.

[radon]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

I see you earned a round of applause from metalman for this post. Good work.

This Faux debate between the "respected" and the "conspiracy nuts" is distracting us from a better understanding.

The problems we face, in the gold markets as well as others, are more serious than the respected allow, and more subtle than the conspiracy nuts portray.

Perhaps we should quit watching the iTulip variation of a weekend football game and continue our studies and learning.

I would argue that it is the steady stream of sensationalist horse hockey that is distracting us from a better understanding. I agree that debating such a person is pointless. If you have ever had a debate with a gold bug you will find that it is their religion and self worth. They have to be right because it is embedded in their identity. They talk their book continuously and spread bizarre rumors. They will not listen to any evidence to the contrary. They invent straw men in an attempt to show you are wrong or attribute the position you hold to be supporting the invisible conspiracy against them. In the end they construct a fantasy world designed to support this belief system.

Meanwhile in real life COMEX keeps chugging along.

In case you are wondering I have some friends and family who fall into the above category and the discussion of investment topics is completely off limits. They will buy into something and refuse to trade out even at the top of the bubble. Then they will follow it down all the while insisting that they are right and that everyone else in the world is wrong - as if believing they are right makes it so.

I would much rather listen to someone "reputable" who is actively trading and can be somewhat instructive. But hey, to each their own. Just like any information from news feeds or blogs we all have to decide whether it is credible or not. At the end of the day the market will tell us objectively who is right and who is wrong.

ITuip replacing bad information with good information is not a football game in the sense that the opinion of both sides equal weight.

[metalman]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

I would argue that it is the steady stream of sensationalist horse hockey that is distracting us from a better understanding. I agree that debating such a person is pointless. If you have ever had a debate with a gold bug you will find that it is their religion and self worth. They have to be right because it is embedded in their identity. They talk their book continuously and spread bizarre rumors. They will not listen to any evidence to the contrary. They invent straw men in an attempt to show you are wrong or attribute the position you hold to be supporting the invisible conspiracy against them. In the end they construct a fantasy world designed to support this belief system.

Meanwhile in real life COMEX keeps chugging along.

In case you are wondering I have some friends and family who fall into the above category and the discussion of investment topics is completely off limits. They will buy into something and refuse to trade out even at the top of the bubble. Then they will follow it down all the while insisting that they are right and that everyone else in the world is wrong - as if believing they are right makes it so.

I would much rather listen to someone "reputable" who is actively trading and can be somewhat instructive. But hey, to each their own. Just like any information from news feeds or blogs we all have to decide whether it is credible or not. At the end of the day the market will tell us objectively who is right and who is wrong.

ITuip replacing bad information with good information is not a football game in the sense that the opinion of both sides equal weight.

er, you're talking to a guy who believes the usa gov't blew up the world trade towers. nuff said.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

er, you're talking to a guy who believes the usa gov't blew up the world trade towers. nuff said.

aw shucks - thanks for the kind words

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Judging by history, this is going to get ugly

I would argue that it is the steady stream of sensationalist horse hockey that is distracting us from a better understanding.

I'll agree with that much.

[Zorro]

Re: Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

2. Would you be so kind to post what sets the silver/gold price? Is it trading in actual physical gold, or is the price heavily influenced by supply/demand for paper silver/gold? Should it be?
What about those huge short positions that JPM and HSBC have? Are those legitimate short positions? How much bullion do they have to possess such huge short positions?

A) The price at COMEX is heavily influenced by speculation. (Paper Trading)
B) Speculation is a fact of life in all commodities.
C) There is no evidence (nor can anyone support the claim) that JPM or HSBC hold any given amount of short positions at COMEX.
D) A short position is no less "legitimate" than a long position. To suggest that any short position (supposedly held by JPM or HSBC) is not legitimate, shows a lack of understanding the futures market. If it were intent that allows for credibility in the futures market, the bulk of all long positions (the driving force of higher prices) would be most suspect. It is without question that 73% of all long contracts in the COMEX silver market are held by speculators with no intention of taking delivery of a single ounce.
It can not be said that the sell side of a contract is not legitimate when the buy side never intended to take delivery in the first place.
E) The physical holdings and the identity of those firms offering to sell into a market are not subect to review. It would leave all firms at a disadvantage if it were publicly known who they are, and how much physical supply they wish to market.

Z

[Spartacus]

Re: Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

E) The physical holdings and the identity of those firms offering to sell into a market are not subect to review. It would leave all firms at a disadvantage if it were publicly known who they are, and how much physical supply they wish to market.

not subject to review? you must mean something other than what I'm reading there.

they are not supposed to be publicly disclosed by the exchange or the CFTC, but aren't COMEX/CME and CFTC both supposed to review the holdings and the positions, long and short?

Aren't the auditors of the companies supposed to review the holdings, and the short positions, and the long positions, to prepare accurate financial statements?

The firms themselves, and individuals once their position sizes get above a certain point have reporting requirements with the exchange and/or the regulator, and if the regulator doesn't have the power to audit, or the power to demand independent audits, they're a very strange regulator indeed

When Chilton wrote that they did a year long investigation into allegations about the Silver market, I'm sure he did not mean
"no holdings of any trader are subject to review"

[thisandthat.nowandth]

Re: Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

Darryl R. Schoon: Gold, Professor Fekete And The Economic Armageddon Signal

Best read at the link.

Snip:

Apr 13, 2010

THE WEST’S WAR ON GOLD

After 1971 when gold was no longer anchored the currencies of the West, Western central banks embarked on a campaign to defend their now fiat paper currencies against any rise in the price of gold, oil and other commodities that would expose the declining value of their paper currencies.

Thus began the West’s war on gold, a war directed by the West’s central banks. In an article written in 2001, Peter Warburton expertly deconstructs and details what to most is still opaque, the reason why the gold market is manipulated by Western ruling elites.

Warburton’s article exposes why the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission last month chose to ignore charges that gold and silver markets are manipulated. The central banks (and the CFTC) are well aware of the manipulation; the reason being that central banks are responsible for the manipulation and Warburton explains why:


Full Text

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

F) The main bullion banks, such as HSBC and JPMorgan, avoid excessive systemic risk, obtuse contracts and convoluted counter-party arrangements, even if it harms their short term profits and bonuses. (yeah, right :rolleyes:.)

In other words, speaking straight up, we can be rather certain by now that when the SHTF, there will be much pain. We can be rather certain that major players have overly optimized short term gain (whatever that be for them) at the expense of long term robust stability in the face of market challenges. We can be rather certain that the distribution of the size of participants in this market, like so many others, is sufficiently skewed that when the few biggest participants are severely stressed, it will threaten the entire market.

It's a top heavy boat, rigged for speed. She'll capsize in the next storm, or else the cargo will be impounded and the crew taken prisoner by some other larger, more nefarious ship as part of an inevitable "rescue."

[Zorro]

Re: Deep Capture: Manipulating Gold and Silver

not subject to review? you must mean something other than what I'm reading there.

they are not supposed to be publicly disclosed by the exchange or the CFTC, but aren't COMEX/CME and CFTC both supposed to review the holdings and the positions, long and short?

Aren't the auditors of the companies supposed to review the holdings, and the short positions, and the long positions, to prepare accurate financial statements?

The firms themselves, and individuals once their position sizes get above a certain point have reporting requirements with the exchange and/or the regulator, and if the regulator doesn't have the power to audit, or the power to demand independent audits, they're a very strange regulator indeed

When Chilton wrote that they did a year long investigation into allegations about the Silver market, I'm sure he did not mean
"no holdings of any trader are subject to review"

I must not have been clear....traders are not subject to public review.

They are subject to internal review by the exchange.
Z