What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

[WildspitzE]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

The thing is, if you have a gun and there is a criminal coming at you, and he also have a weapon, and act as a fired up idiot trying to defend his home and family, the risk is much better for a life going down. I consider the criminals life of equal worth. If only one have a gun, then it's much more likely, that the thing will just blow over on itself, as you won't attempt something stupid.

Re: bold above: say what?

[snakela]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

As I hope he will do, something needs to be done with the gun crazy Americans.

This is why people are fearful: people in washington or on the other side of the planet are dictating they can't do or own something that generations of previous americans enjoyed.

[BadJuju]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Yes, that's what I recommend. The last 10 years, in Norway, I think there have been two cases where intruders have been murdered. In both cases the gun nuts, have been charged with full murder. Had they not had a gun, the whole thing had been avoided. The notion that you can just kill someone that enters your property in self defense with a gun, is not right. Just let them empty your house, get your insurance.

If you enter my house without my permission, I am going to assume you are trying to hurt me. And if that is the case, I am going to shoot to kill. I am not putting my life in the hands of some silly law that protects criminals.

[WildspitzE]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

There was just a piece on this on 60 Minutes this past weekend. It alleged that people are hoarding bullets because of a fear that the Obama administration will impose a heavy tax on ammunition, as an end-around means of gun control.

Also, look into Encoded Ammunition.

[j4f2h0]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Yes, that's what I recommend. The last 10 years, in Norway, I think there have been two cases where intruders have been murdered. In both cases the gun nuts, have been charged with full murder. Had they not had a gun, the whole thing had been avoided. The notion that you can just kill someone that enters your property in self defense with a gun, is not right. Just let them empty your house, get your insurance.

I know every state doesnt have the "MAKE MY DAY LAW, " but i grew up in NC, and vividly remember a man in Durham, NC getting acquitted after shooting an intruder in the back as he was fleeing his property! IT was deemed he had a legal right to defend his property even though the intruder was fleeing! I believe his name was "Seagrove" if you wanted to look it up! In colorado as well the make my day law says and i quote wikipedia

"Castle Doctrines are legislated by state, and not all states in the US have a Castle Doctrine. The term "Make My Day Law" comes from the landmark 1985 Colorado statute that protects people from any criminal charge or civil suit if they use force – including deadly force – against an invader of the home.[2] The law's nickname is a reference to the famous line uttered by Clint Eastwood's character Harry Callahan in the 1983 film Sudden Impact, "Go ahead, make my day."

So nero3 our populace doesn't not value a thief's life the same way it values anyone else, and we do not have to worry about being charged for murder while protecting our home! Protecting the homestead in America is almost a religion, not to be messed with!

[snakela]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Here is another thought:

Does Norway have large and concentraded populations of uneducated and unemployed living off the welfare system? This is another anecdotal concern I've seen expressed on the interwebs and gun stores of the US lately: With drops in tax reciepts what the hell are all the people in Detroit, Gary, Philidelphia etc. that never had a job when times were good going to do when the gov't check either stops comming or no longer has any purchasing power? Or when the market for the drugs they sell dries up? They all have illegal guns.

Note: I realize this is a sweeping generalization with racist undertones, I'm just saying what I've heard said/typed. From what I have seen in gun shows and stores, that may not be too far from the truth. I've never seen a minority in a legal gun purchasing venue (seriously not once!) even though those areas have a high non-white population.

[jtabeb]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

You had this case with a TV celebrity that were apparently also a gun freak, he was having his apartment full of various gun's, and machine guns, all legal. Of course he was in the paranoid corner one day, and starting firing off, to scare of an imagined intruder. Did not hurt anyone, but that just shows what a mess it is with guns, when you get obsessed about it.

Even gun laws are liberal here, it's extremely rare to own a gun, and you need to go through a lot of training. Extremely rare. Of people between age 20-40, maybe 1 in 10000 , I'm really not sure on the numbers, but gun density is extremely low.

The thing is, if you have a gun and there is a criminal coming at you, and he also have a weapon, and act as a fired up idiot trying to defend his home and family, the risk is much better for a life going down. I consider the criminals life of equal worth. If only one have a gun, then it's much more likely, that the thing will just blow over on itself, as you won't attempt something stupid.

According to your governments statistics the number is 1 in 4 households own a firearm.

Here are some more interesting facts on firearm ownership in norway

To acquire any firearm in Norway you must obtain a "Permit to Acquire" from the police. This costs N.Kr.125 (ca. GB£12) per application. There is no upper limit on the number of firearms you can apply for. There is no set time on how long the application takes to process, but in my area 10 to 14 days is normal. With the permit in hand the gun can be purchased. The seller countersigns the form and returns it to the police. The gun is registered in the name of the purchaser and a Firearms Permit is issued and sent to the buyer after a few weeks. The original form acts as a temporary permit. The Firearms Permit is valid for the rest of that persons life. The police have a register of local gun owners. The permit must be shown when buying ammunition, and only ammunition in the calibre shown on the permit can be purchased. The permit must also be shown when buying primers and powder (gunpowder).

To be considered for issuance of a permit the applicant must have "valid reason". Valid reasons include (but are not limited to): Hunting, Vermin Control, Target Shooting, Collecting, Self-Defence. A self-defence permit allows the person to carry a pistol concealed, but these are rarely granted.

No type of firearm is banned in Norway, however the type of firearm you can own is dictated by the use to which it will be put:

Hunting or Vermin Control: any shotgun and any rifle except military style semi-auto rifles.
Target Shooting: any shotgun, rifle or pistol appropriate to the type of shooting. For example you wouldn't be granted a permit for a pistol if you were a member of a Skeet Club.
Collecting: any type of firearm (including full-auto). In recent years collectors have been asked to define their "Area of Interest". A collector who has as an area of interest of "German Military Weapons 1890 - 1945" would be allowed to collect full-auto Schmeissers, Maxims, etc. A collector who has as an area of interest of "Winchester Rifles" would be limited to rifles from Winchester.
Members of the armed forces (this also includes reservists and part-timers) are entitled to a permit for any gun, except full-auto.
The minimum age for acquisition is:
18 years for rifles and shotguns (16 years with parental consent).
21 years for pistols.
To acquire a rifle or shotgun for hunting you must first have passed the hunter safety course (Jegerprove).

To acquire a rifle shotgun or pistol you must have been a member of a pistol club for six months, have shot at least 15 times (with the club's guns) and have passed a gun safety course.

To gain collector status you must first have a collection (Catch 22 eh!). The collection could be of antique guns, or deactivated guns, or even militaria like uniforms or bayonets. When the collection exceeds 25 guns you have to install extra security at home, and the police have to approve this. Guns in a collection can be fired.

Oh, and by the way silencers are available over the counter - no registration or anything. The use of a silencer is seen as an act of good neighbourliness.

A gun acquired for one purpose can be used for other purposes (as long as it is legal). For example a collector could go hunting with one of his rifles, whilst a hunter could use her shotgun for shooting trap.

You must provide secure storage for you gun at home. When the house is unoccupied the gun must be stored unloaded and locked up (or a vital part removed). The ammunition must be locked up separately from the gun. The police may inspect your storage and if they consider it inadequate make recommendations as to improving it.

About one adult in eight possesses a registered firearm. There are large numbers of (legally) unregistered guns in addition to these. Somewhere between one household in three and one in four have a gun. The government supports target shooting with direct subsidies of millions of kroner each year. Large numbers of skilled riflemen are seen as beneficial to the nation's defence - the fullbore rifle association has some 200,000 members (Not bad for a country with 4.4 million population).

Foreigners can visit Norway with guns and ammunition to participate in hunting and/or competitions. A visitors permit is issued. Apply beforehand at your local Norwegian embassy. They will need a letter from the person or shooting club that is inviting you. Unless you are royalty or a visiting head of state a visitors carry permit will not be issued!

Foreigners moving to Norway with guns should alert customs beforehand. They are pretty laid back about shotguns and hunting rifles, and owners of these are often allowed to carry them through. Owners of other types of firearms may find that customs (or a local firearms dealer) hold these guns until the owner has joined an appropriate shooting club.

If you have any other questions just ask.

Andrew Walls
Near the arctic circle
Norway

[jtabeb]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

Nero3 & jtabeb: A little dose of legal and current reality for both of you.


JTabeb: Fully automatic firearms are not legal to own in Norway. §2 in the regulations state that it is illegal to own (source in Norwegian and in semi-intelligible Google Translate):

• Guns that usually are used as guns of war ("krigsvåpen", German "kriegswaffen")
• fully automatic firearms, even though they are not usually used as guns of war
• firearms camouflaged as another item
• armor piercing ammunition (metal core), incendiary or explosive ammunition
• electroshock weapons, pepper spray, spring knifes, batanga knives, stiletto knifes, "fighting gloves", "karate sticks", "throwing stars", dart blowing devices.

Nero3: Gun ownership is quite common in Norway. Handguns are owned by 4% of households, and any kind of firearm is owned by 32% of households. (Source here or here). The murder rate is 1 out of 100,000 population per year (30-45 per year). Norway has 8 murders by firearm per year (source). Combine that with a 32% household firearm ownership rate for at least 1.5 million firearms, and you get a "one in a million" firearm death rate. Getting certain statistics from that meagre evidence is not easy.

Norway, Finland and Switzerland have traditionally subscribed to the "hedgehog" (Norwegian: pinnsvin) old-fashioned approach. Arm the populace against a foreign intruder, and it will be more difficult. This position is falling out of favour, as Nero3 shows.

That said, Nero3 holds the now common urban "liberal" Norwegian's view of guns. The Swedes have a nice ironic saying: "Snälla staten, takk for maten", which means "Dear government, thanks for the food".

"Trust the system". And buy a big box of Crisco while you're at it. You're gonna need it.

Please see my last post ( I beg to differ as to the legalities of owning a full auto firearm in Norway)

BTW my friend who lives there loves his Glock 18 (full auto 9mm pistol).

[Mn_Mark]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

The problems with all these guns is that they statistically just ends up killing friends and family. In my view all negative. Less guns, more safety, so simple. Each individual gun buyer might think he can buck the odds, but the proof is overwhelming, buying a gun, is stupid, I have a suspicion it's part of a southern states culture going way back, sort of intuition" as the stereotype. Let's say you even are so lucky that a thief make an attempt at your house, even then, you will be safer without a gun.

This is a good illustration of the European view of human beings:

* that we are basically stupid, irresponsible children who are not to be trusted with too much independence or power. We must not be allowed to own guns because they are too dangerous for us...only the government should have guns, because the government is wise and kind and made up of people who have studied the proper courses at the proper universities.

* that we are selfish and greedy and would not give the proper amount to charity if it was left up to us, so our money should be taken away from us and given to the proper causes.

* that we will buy the wrong products or offer the wrong services or invest in the wrong investments, so wise government officials should decide what we are allowed to buy, sell, and invest in.

* that we are too stupid to be able to tell whether an idea is true or not, so we must only be exposed to proper ideas, and the rest will be banned as "hate speech".

Traditional Americans believe that the only proper role of government is to protect our freedom. We are responsible for our lives beyond that, and we like it that way. We don't want to live in a society that's been turned into a gigantic kindergarten where Mommy Government decides for us how to think and live so we don't hurt our itty-bitty selves.

Americans from the Pilgrims to the Founders to the Western settlers to the modern day have kept firearms for defense and we will to the day we die. Take your paternalistic European views and keep them over there. Oh, and see how well they serve you when the rest of Norway, like Oslo, becomes increasingly muslim. I'm sure the muslims will be very happy that you are all unarmed.

[jtabeb]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

This is a good illustration of the European view of human beings:

* that we are basically stupid, irresponsible children who are not to be trusted with too much independence or power. We must not be allowed to own guns because they are too dangerous for us...only the government should have guns, because the government is wise and kind and made up of people who have studied the proper courses at the proper universities.

* that we are selfish and greedy and would not give the proper amount to charity if it was left up to us, so our money should be taken away from us and given to the proper causes.

* that we will buy the wrong products or offer the wrong services or invest in the wrong investments, so wise government officials should decide what we are allowed to buy, sell, and invest in.

* that we are too stupid to be able to tell whether an idea is true or not, so we must only be exposed to proper ideas, and the rest will be banned as "hate speech".

Traditional Americans believe that the only proper role of government is to protect our freedom. We are responsible for our lives beyond that, and we like it that way. We don't want to live in a society that's been turned into a gigantic kindergarten where Mommy Government decides for us how to think and live so we don't hurt our itty-bitty selves.

Americans from the Pilgrims to the Founders to the Western settlers to the modern day have kept firearms for defense and we will to the day we die. Take your paternalistic European views and keep them over there. Oh, and see how well they serve you when the rest of Norway, like Oslo, becomes increasingly muslim. I'm sure the muslims will be very happy that you are all unarmed.

Ah, got to love your countrymen even if they are bigots.

Well, I hate to point it out to you but this muslim has fought in 2 wars to protect your sorry ass (YES ON "OUR" SIDE). I'm in air force you dumass!

[rogermexico]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

This is bullshit. It might have something to do with the European style Obama wanting to control the sale of guns. As I hope he will do, something needs to be done with the gun crazy Americans.

Gee, what do you propose he "do with us"

How about the gun-crazy Finns and Swiss?

If our law-abiding hunters and gun enthusiasts make you feel insecure, so much the better if it keeps nanny-state enthusiasts on the other side of the pond.

[rogermexico]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

The problems with all these guns is that they statistically just ends up killing friends and family. In my view all negative. Less guns, more safety, so simple. Each individual gun buyer might think he can buck the odds, but the proof is overwhelming, buying a gun, is stupid, I have a suspicion it's part of a southern states culture going way back, sort of intuition" as the stereotype. Let's say you even are so lucky that a thief make an attempt at your house, even then, you will be safer without a gun.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[gwynedd1]

Re: What's really happening in USA is finally sinking in

There was just a piece on this on 60 Minutes this past weekend. It alleged that people are hoarding bullets because of a fear that the Obama administration will impose a heavy tax on ammunition, as an end-around means of gun control.

Hi Chomsky,

Well then some of you made the right move buying precious metals, especially Platinum and Rhodium. All we need then is ammonia to make the nitric acid. I am sure some of us can start growing the cotton. That should give us a good supply of nitrocellulose. Obama will need to keep his eye out for anyone hoarding cat piss.

Primers will be a bit more challenging but I am sure someone would start looking into making Potassium perchlorate based primers. The lead and brass is easy.

[rogermexico]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

This is a good illustration of the European view of human beings:

* that we are basically stupid, irresponsible children who are not to be trusted with too much independence or power. We must not be allowed to own guns because they are too dangerous for us...only the government should have guns, because the government is wise and kind and made up of people who have studied the proper courses at the proper universities.

* that we are selfish and greedy and would not give the proper amount to charity if it was left up to us, so our money should be taken away from us and given to the proper causes.

* that we will buy the wrong products or offer the wrong services or invest in the wrong investments, so wise government officials should decide what we are allowed to buy, sell, and invest in.

* that we are too stupid to be able to tell whether an idea is true or not, so we must only be exposed to proper ideas, and the rest will be banned as "hate speech".

Traditional Americans believe that the only proper role of government is to protect our freedom. We are responsible for our lives beyond that, and we like it that way. We don't want to live in a society that's been turned into a gigantic kindergarten where Mommy Government decides for us how to think and live so we don't hurt our itty-bitty selves.

Americans from the Pilgrims to the Founders to the Western settlers to the modern day have kept firearms for defense and we will to the day we die. Take your paternalistic European views and keep them over there. Oh, and see how well they serve you when the rest of Norway, like Oslo, becomes increasingly muslim. I'm sure the muslims will be very happy that you are all unarmed.

I am sure you meant "militant islamist" instead of "muslim" - now apologize to morpheus.

Otherwise, +1 on your excellent post.

I live in a rural county where there are probably twice as many guns as people, many of them deer rifles that are several times more powerful than the demonized, so called "assault weapons". We had a single murder in the county in the 12 years I have lived here. A schizophrenic killed another man with a replica samurai sword on new years eve. No kidding.

No gun accidents or homicides in my "gun crazy" county in at least 12 years.

[Rantly McTirade]

Re: gun sales skyrocketing in US

Ah, got to love your countrymen even if they are bigots.

Well, I hate to point it out to you but this muslim has fought in 2 wars to protect your sorry ass (YES ON "OUR" SIDE). I'm in air force you dumass!

There's been absolutely no war that was fought to protect American citizens' asses since the War of 1812. No matter who that nonsensical phrase comes from it comes from, it is beyond tiresome, though apparantly
from your statement at least you're not a idiot-con sofa samuri.