9-11 Conspiracy Theories

[jtabeb]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

JTABEB - when you make a comment like that, I get a picture in my mind of someone sitting on the potty with a tight sphincter. :rolleyes:

No, that's the picture of the management (no offense guys).

Still, fair is fair, their site, their rules (and I'm not a paying subscriber anymore, so who am I to complain).

[jtabeb]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I predict a Web Holiday, sometime within minutes following the next such shocking event.

Old news buddy, (or did you miss the thread)

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9214

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Old news buddy, (or did you miss the thread)

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9214

Ah - not only did I not miss that thread, I posted the final post to it, explaining why the Powerz That Be would not shut down the web. It's a good thing I don't take myself too seriously. ;).

Perhaps the key is that when they do shut it down, they will have to blame the enemy du jour.

[Master Shake]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I am quite sure there are other samples of the WTC debris in dozens of locations in NY and/or the landfills to which the WTC debris was carted in NJ. Some of them will be within municipal custody, or some institutional custody. Those would be some fairly substantial landfills. How many tens of thousands of metric tons of debris all collected in a pile? It would be entirely straightforward to do random wide sampling through all that debris to reconstruct the presence of flakes of fully assembled micronized thermite.

See how approachable the topic becomes, once the angst and position taking are removed? What would be the potential for refuting say, the result of 100 samplings, taken from the core of the landfill to which the WTC was trucked? This is one material that will continue to sit there inertly for decades. Say you found nano-particle processed thermite in 1/6 of those samples?

Then say a dozen metallurgical specialists could be summoned to confirm that nano-particle processed thermite cannot exist anywhere other than via manufacture? Well the 9/11 truthers give me a real headache - but I will tell you this much - If I saw this inquiry proceed that far, come in positive for 1/6 of the samples containing micronized thermite, and then the inquiry died there - speaking for myself that would raise my own antennae.

Don's story had a point which most rational people would instantly grasp here. ***any*** traces of this material - thermite - in the vicinity of the WTC debris is a matter which should be explained by scientific method, including statistical probability, microanalysis, investigation of the original building materials which constructed the WTC in the 1970's - the works.

That would be a scrupulous approach. I continue to think the entire conspiracy thesis is rubbish - but I also think that scoffing at the preliminary finding of thermite anywhere near downtown Manhattan is total rubbish as far as a mature industrialised nation's appropriate level of due diligence. Think just of the insurance companies and claims, and the payouts involved to recall what due process would automatically require in any other instance if thermite were found.

It is roughly the equivalent of an investigation at the scene of a murder, where an assailant is presumed to have employed a blunt instrument, yet gunpowder was found in "trace quantities". The dismissal of trace nanoparticle thermite in this instance would be the rough equivalent of dismissing the trace quantities of gunpowder as a "specious detour outside the chain of custody" to that investigation. That is one rubbishy investigative approach, and rubbishy methodology, IMO.

A post from the JREF site:

I am not a Chemist, but I have worked with optics since I rebuilt my first telescope at age 12. So I know a thing or two about spectral analysis. Below I have created a composite of the spectra from page 8 of Dr. Jones paper (Fig 7) for the red dust and the spectra for thermite.



The spectra for thermite extends only to 5 keV, so lets just talk about that segment shall we? Galileo, please show me the spectra signature for thermite in any of the four spectra presented by Dr. Jones. I am open to the evidence, but I simply don't see the 4.5 keV peak for titanium in any of the spectra above or elsewhere in his paper. Show me the thermite Galileo.

Perhaps Dr. Jones is talking another flavor of thermite. If so, please post the spectra for it so that we can compare.

So, the bottome line is that there is no evidence that any thermite was found in these dust samples.


I suggest reading the Thermite thread. They really do a good job of debunking this thermite nonsense.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139293

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

They really do a good job of debunking this thermite nonsense.

Could you point to some more specific posts on that http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139293 thread that perform this good debunking job.

On the first page of that thread, the post that rings most true to me is the one that states:

Mods:

Please move this to the mental pygmies section.

The people here have no interest in rational or scientific discussion.

I am very disappointed in the quality of the James Randi forum.

I didn't feel like spending the time scanning the remaining several pages of that thread to find the comments to which you were apparently referring.

[D-Mack]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/...ns/romero.html


What you needed that day were a pair of eyes and to be naive ......

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/...ns/romero.html


What you needed that day were a pair of eyes and to be naive ......

The quickness and thoroughness (such as forcing this retraction you link to) with which the "official" story was laid down suggests (to the conspiracy inclined such as myself) that someone in American officialdom was not entirely surprised by the events of the morning of 9/11.

[skyson]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

The center of the matter is that the US government has not actually given a credible explanation of how the WTC towers collapsed. In the NIST final report, an impressive 470 pages long, yet only two paragraphs addressing the strange behavior of the towers collapsing. And these two paragraphs could only be described as full of conjetures, and circular argument, without any supporting data or models throughout the whole report:

9.3.3 Events Following Collapse Initiation
Failure of the south wall in WTC 1 and east wall in WTC 2 caused the portion of the building above to tilt in the direction of the failed wall. The tilting was accompanied by a downward movement. The story immediately below the stories in which the columns failed was not able to arrest this initial movement as evidenced by videos from several vantage points.

The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceed the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on thefloors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.

The falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it, much like the action of a piston, forcing material, such as smoke and debris, out the windows as seen in several vidoes.

NIST found no corrobating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition (so why the two towers collapsed in the similar fashions despite the fact they substained very different damgages caused by the planes and fire? why all the concrete were reduced to dust? why the collapse were total and symatric? why so many witnesses reported secondary explosions?) using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly showed that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward, until the dust clouds obscured the view.

1.so story below failed - proven by videos
2.the faling structure released TREMENDOUS energy, overcame the intact structure below - where is the calculation? should not be that difficult to figure that out, right?
3. again story below offers MINIMUM resistance - so the structure was free falling, that is simple enough, no calculation is needed, right?
4. one floor failed, then of course the rest of them would fail sequentially, no doubt about that either.

I could hardly believe this is the work of hundred of structure engineering experts! At best, we could only categorize the theory in the NIST final report as "pre-collapse theory". Strangely, the report abruptly ends when the "initiation of collapse ensue". Take a look for yourself. Here is the link for the full report:

http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201-6.pdf

If the US government has not given a answer, then I think it is a fair game for the independent researchers advancing their own theories, such as Steve Jones:

www.journalof911studies.com

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

www.journalof911studies.com

Good link - thanks.

[Rajiv]

Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission: "There Was an Agreement Not to Tell the Truth"

Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission: "At Some Level of the Government, at Some Point in Time...There Was an Agreement Not to Tell the Truth"

On April 14th, the senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission - John Farmer - will publish a book called The Ground Truth: The Story Behind America's Defense on 9/11.


The book has not yet been released, and I'm not sure what Farmer will say. But here is a quote available on Amazon:

At some level of the government, at some point in time...there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened.

Farmer's publisher, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, says of the book:

Farmer builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version not only is almost entirely untrue but serves to create a false impression of order and security.

Farmer has previously said:

I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true.

[marvenger]

Re: Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission: "There Was an Agreement Not to Tell the Truth"

I think everyone would agree the only thing backing the american dollar is the military. The government has to justify the military somehow and apparently its as easy as convincing everyone guys with box cutters can highjack planes at will and fly them into important buildings close to airforce bases that have had hours of warning something is going down. Never mind the best pilots doubt they could perform such manouvers yet below average students managed it perfectly. Nevermind building 7 which suffered minimal damage collapsed perfectly symmetrically into its own footprint at near free fall speed. Here's video of dutch demolition expert danny jowenko watching WTC7 collapse, here's a kid calling him in 2007 to check he still agrees it was a demolition, here's his professional website where you can find heaps of videos of jobs he's done. Only a looney would think these things, along with US governments lack of analysis and comment on them, suspicious.

[skyson]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

In fact, FBI has publicly stated that they do not have the evidence to prove Bin Laden is involved in the atrocity. This should be huge news, yet completely ignored by the MSM.

FBI: Bin Laden Not Wanted for 9/11

Also see this:
"Fatty" bin Laden

Another crucial aspect of the event is that the involvement of the 19 "terrorists" has never been proven in court. One should be assumed innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

Combining with the fact that US government has never given proper explanation of why and how the Twin Towers and WTC 7 totally collapsed, I consider the case is pretty much settled: the case of 9/11 is planned and carried out by Bin Laden and the 19 terrorists is simply an urban myth, an accusation advanced by the US government which is not based on evidences that could stand the court of law.

Watching the banksters and officials criminal behaviors in the current financial crisis, are we outraged yet?

[aaron]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Watching the banksters and officials criminal behaviors in the current financial crisis, are we outraged yet?

I am outraged, but not enough to risk my life in facing these people. If they can kill Kennedy and launch attacks on any country they wish, they can certainly take me out too. I admire the bravery of these reporters & citizens. I do not know if any of the conspiracies are true, however I BELIEVE they are within the realm of possibilities. This belief is enough to keep me in line.

bah.. bah.. bah...

[skyson]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Wow, watch this:

A danish scientist Niels Harrit, on nano-thermite in the WTC dust

[rogermexico]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Wow, watch this:

A danish scientist Niels Harrit, on nano-thermite in the WTC dust

I am amazed that anybody would be impressed by that at all. There are so many holes I don't know where to start.

Who verifed the nano-thermite? How many independent labs?

Who verified the chain of custody?

Nano-thermite has aluminum and iron in it? Are you kidding? No one can conceive of how else aluminum (Airplanes are made of plastic,no wait...I think there might be aluminum in there, too) and iron (Isn't steel mostly iron? I think so!) could be found?

Gee, how could aluminum and iron be found together in really tiny (nano) particles in dust, wouldn't that require some kind of massive, intensely hot explosion, with tons of crushing pressure to grind the particles up into....dust?

Why use planes packed full of civilians, why not just blow up the buildings?

Why did the plane go down in Pennsylvania? Were the professional pilots who were in on the plot incompetent and just crashed it? I suppose the pentagon thermite is still sitting there or maybe they have spiritied the "tonnes" of thermite out without anyone noticing.

This thread is not worthy of itulip. I feel like when I meet someone at the gun range and find out they are a friendly racist when they start tossing off the "n" word.

I feel kind of ...soiled

Questioning everything is one thing, seeing omnipitent evil where there is only incomptence is just stupid.

This belongs with threads about JFK, the trilateral commission, racist rants about worldwide "jewry"