9-11 Conspiracy Theories

[Master Shake]

I was reading the thermite thread and was a bit shocked to see iTulipers buying into the Truther nonsense. However, there is certainly a large amount of those folks around. In a recent poll on the Kitco forum, about 75% of those responding believed in some form of Truther conspiracy nonsense.

For those interested, here's a large number of debunker links.



http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/4220721.html
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://911guide.googlepages.com/
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Main_Page
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html
http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html

Personally, I prefer Maddox's response

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....i?u=911_morons

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

[jtabeb]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I was reading the thermite thread and was a bit shocked to see iTulipers buying into the Truther nonsense. However, there is certainly a large amount of those folks around. In a recent poll on the Kitco forum, about 75% of those responding believed in some form of Truther conspiracy nonsense.

For those interested, here's a large number of debunker links.



http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/4220721.html
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://911guide.googlepages.com/
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Main_Page
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html
http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html

Personally, I prefer Maddox's response

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....i?u=911_morons

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

Well the problem is that the consperacies sound so plausible and the investigative work sounds well documented that the general dude on the street has to do alot of work to discet it and detect the errors. (emphasis on "sounds").

Finding independant and qualified people to debunk these ideas that will also be accepted by "truthers" as you call them is also problematic as they "don't trust anyone" to quote Fox Molder.

Pretty sad, we should focus all that energy on political and financial reform. Would be a much better use of resources if you ask me.

[tombat1913]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I was reading the thermite thread and was a bit shocked to see iTulipers buying into the Truther nonsense. However, there is certainly a large amount of those folks around. In a recent poll on the Kitco forum, about 75% of those responding believed in some form of Truther conspiracy nonsense.

For those interested, here's a large number of debunker links.



http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
http://www.911myths.com/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/4220721.html
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://911guide.googlepages.com/
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=64
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/Main_Page
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html
http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html

Personally, I prefer Maddox's response

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....i?u=911_morons

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

Truther conspiracy nonsense, blah blah blah, why are you still posting this stuff on itulip?

[D-Mack]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I know this is an economic site and people don't like to talk about it.

So I will ask a question more in that direction.


Does anybody know more about her or was it just a lucky guess or not even that?

Russian Expert Who ‘Predicted’ Attacks Warns of New Ones
Dr. Alexandr Nemets
Thursday, Oct. 4, 2001
The same Russian government expert who predicted last July that America was about to suffer a "financial attack" –- and encouraged Russian citizens to cash out dollars and buy rubles and gold –- has again surfaced to make more stunning forecasts.

Dr. Tatyana Koryagina gained some credibility in the Russian media because of her prediction of an unusual catastrophe that was about to hit the U.S.


...


The Powerful Group. Who is behind these strikes? Koryagina claims the U.S. is painting a false picture. She said the operation was not the work of 19 terrorists but a larger group seeking to reshape the world. She claimed a group of extremely powerful private persons, with total assets of about $300 trillion, intends to legalize its power and to become the new world government. The Sept. 11 strikes showed that this group is afraid of nothing -- human lives have zero value for them.

Koryagina again encouraged Russian citizens to cash out dollars. The Koryagina claims are not easily dismissed, especially her clear indications in the interview before Sept. 11 that the attacks on America’s financial system would be of an unusual nature. Her comments also mirrored similar warnings issued by Russian officials.

Still, this story raises other questions. Did the Russian government know in advance and what was their involvement?

...

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...3/212706.shtml

[Master Shake]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Truther conspiracy nonsense, blah blah blah, why are you still posting this stuff on itulip?

Still?

This is rant and rave. There's a joke thread here, too. BFD. Don't like it, don't click on the thread.

[Guest]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Just for general information - here is a brief outline of the combustive properties of nano-particle thermite. As any layman can see at a glance, this material is so explosive to any environment of structural steel, as to render even the smallest traces of it's presence "interesting".

In plain layman's terms, the finding of nano-particle **thermite**, not it's components, but the thermite itself, anywhere within a mile of downtown Manhattan is itself **interesting** insofar as we have half the US gold deposited in underground vaults there, the nerve center of the US financial system is above ground there, and a very large concentration of the financial clearing processes of a goodsized chunk of the world there also for good measure.

Therefore the task seems exceedingly simple. All mention of the World Trade Center catastrophe should be kept firmly sealed, and ONLY the question of the thermite finding in the dust of the World Trade Center should be examined.

The original thread never even came within a country mile of that mandate. It's ramifications render so many people either flamingly indignant in one direction or the other, that the thread quickly degenerated into heated exchanges about the truth underlying the World Trade Center collapse. If it's contributors had been evaluated for any sound method of inquiry, they would have been universally panned. BTW, that means "flunked".

_________________

Just imagine for a moment, that prepared, nano-particle-sized **thermite** were shown to be unable to "synthesize" out of the WTC collapse. Then suppose it's presence in ful nano-thermite form were successfully peer-reviewed as indeed present in the samples which have been reported on. In other words - the nano-thermite is real, it is indeed found in the WTC rubble samples in fully descrete flakes of it's fully-manufactured form, these tests actually cooked off some of these flake samples, and the residue of the cook-off confirmed it's manufactured nano-particle-ized nature. Then suppose a statistical estimate evidences a probability of one in various millions of chances that such fully-assembled nano-thermite could ever be "produced" by even a white hot fire containing the standard structural materials of a downtown Manhattan skyscraper building.

What's fully assembled nano-thermite doing within a country mile of that vicinity? Downtown Manhattan, one of the most densely, and critically populated few square miles on the planet, and trace nano-thermite just "finds it's way" there?

I don't believe the 9/11 truthers conclusions. But following the above train of reasoning would be the more impartial way to approach this topic. As the article below notes, this stuff in nano-particle form, is very, very, very excitable, and it reacts during combustion to neighboring steel as though that steel were paper, or as though each I-beam were merely a toothpick. That gives one an idea - of the percentage of probability that any traces of thermite could be permitted on any construction site in downtown Manhattan.

I don't buy the conclusions it suggests, but frankly, does not seem anyone in this community approaches this story with even one tenth of the agnosticism required to put together any credible review at all. iTulip's editorial response was fascinating, as is that of all those here who regarded the original post as anything ranging from "offensive" to "innately stupid". It's a psychological snapshot of where people place the demarcation line of topics they will calmly consider, and which ones they will not calmly consider.

_________________

A Nanoparticle with a Big Bang // Michelle Pantoya - Texas Tech University

Background: Experiments on spherical nano-particles of aluminum have shown that when triggered by an external ignition source, nano-particles will explode into atomic size clusters that are spewed in all directions. The particle transforms from a single extremely small, dense and very hot particle into an expansion of atomic size clusters of highly reactive molten aluminum that are propelled in all directions at high velocities. One use for nano-aluminum particles is as a fuel ingredient in a thermite reaction. Thermites represent a mixture of metal fuel and oxidizers which produce high temperatures and a self propagating reaction. Research at Texas Tech has shown that nanoparticle thermites are highly reactive compared to their micron-scale counterparts. Nano-aluminum containing thermites are highly sensitive to ignition, reduce ignition times by up to three orders of magnitude and can increase reaction speeds from a sluggish crawl to Mach speeds. These superlatives have been hard to explain until the development of a new theory at Texas Tech tailored for the unique properties of nanoparticles. Results: The theory applies for the fast oxidation of aluminum nanoparticles that are covered by a thin oxide shell. Once a particle is exposed to an ignition source, the fast heating creates huge internal thermal stresses due to thermal expansion and volumetric strain during aluminum melting. In a nanoparticle, the volume change associated with melting induces pressures of 0.1 to 4 GPa. This huge pressure build-up causes spallation of the oxide shell (See Figure below). The unbalanced pressure forces between the exposed molten aluminum surface and core generate an unloading wave that creates huge tensile pressures resulting in dispersion of atomic size liquid aluminum clusters which fly with high velocity. The clusters may react with oxygen (or nitrogen) in the air or other gaseous oxidizer, or they may hit a solid oxidizer, partially penetrating in it. In either scenario aluminum oxidation is not limited by diffusion. Traditional thermite reactions are controlled by diffusion of molecules through an aluminum particle's growing oxide shell (Figure below). However, when the external radius of the fuel particle reduces to 10-60 nm the ignition times and reaction speeds are too fast for a diffusion controlled mechanism to be possible. Thus, finding the physical mechanism of material transport and reaction for nanoparticles is one of the most important problems in combustion physics today. Our new theory is called the melt-dispersion-mechanism and explains nanoparticle reactions and how they can be much faster than diffusion will allow.

Micron scale particles react by diffusion of aluminum through an oxide shell, which grows to a critical thickness and is followed by tensile features within the shell exposing the aluminum core. Nano scale particles react by a melt-dispersion-mechanism where the oxide shell spallates exposing the molten core and creates an unloading pressure wave which disperses atomic size aluminum clusters in all directions. Credit: Michelle Pantoya, Texas Tech University

This work is notable because in the field of combustion there are two mechanisms by which reactions are characterized: (1) diffusion or mass transport controlled; and, (2) chemistry or kinetically controlled. Nano-particle reactions have shown not to be described by either. This work will broaden the depth of combustion science by introducing a new mechanism of reaction. This melt-dispersion-mechanism describes reactions involving nano-particles and answers the question: "Why are nano-particles so highly reactive?" This work involves multidisciplinary research by drawing upon the expertise of mechanics, chemistry, material science and combustion.

[Master Shake]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Therefore the task seems exceedingly simple. All mention of the World Trade Center catastrophe should be kept firmly sealed, and ONLY the question of the thermite finding in the dust of the World Trade Center should be examined.

You assume that the "research" documenting the finding of thermite is valid. The crowd at JREF ripped that "peer-reviewed" paper a new one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139293

[Guest]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I did read "the crowd's" responses at the link you provided, and frankly the quality of the commentary would rate of the "B" or "C" puerile blogger variety to this reader. Keep in mind I'm making these observations while essentially agreeing with your own conclusions regarding "09/11 truthers", whom I regard as a little bit loopy. However neither your referenced blog's "devastating" debunkers, nor the comments contributed on Don's original thread here, impressed me very much as being within a country mile of a proper and calmly agnostic discussion of the topic. Not that I want to open that can of worms here again. What I really want to comment on is the degree of hidebound thinking on both sides.

[cjppjc]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Freeeed.....

[skyson]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

More in-depth information about the thermite:

Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method
Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse

Did the US government explain why the towers collapsed? See this:

Building a Better Mirage

According to Catherine Fitts, 9/11 might be the FIRE industry's desperate attempts to revive itself:

9/11 Profiteering

[Master Shake]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I did read "the crowd's" responses at the link you provided, and frankly the quality of the commentary would rate of the "B" or "C" puerile blogger variety to this reader. Keep in mind I'm making these observations while essentially agreeing with your own conclusions regarding "09/11 truthers", whom I regard as a little bit loopy. However neither your referenced blog's "devastating" debunkers, nor the comments contributed on Don's original thread here, impressed me very much as being within a country mile of a proper and calmly agnostic discussion of the topic. Not that I want to open that can of worms here again. What I really want to comment on is the degree of hidebound thinking on both sides.

Luke,

Did you read the actual article at the Open Chemical Physics Journal (where you have to pay to have your article published)? Here's how the samples were obtained.

The earliest-collected sample came from Mr. Frank Delessio
who, according to his videotaped testimony [17], was
on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge about the time
the second tower, the North Tower, fell to the ground. He
saw the tower fall and was enveloped by the resulting thick
dust which settled throughout the area. He swept a handful
of the dust from a rail on the pedestrian walkway near the
end of the bridge, about ten minutes after the fall of the
North Tower. He then went to visit his friend, Mr. Tom
Breidenbach, carrying the dust in his hand, and the two of
them discussed the dust and decided to save it in a plastic
bag. On 11/15/2007, Breidenbach sent a portion of this dust

to Dr. Jones for analysis.

The source of the sample material alone would have kept this from being published in a real peer-reviewed journal. Apart from that, ask yourself: does it seem at all plausible that a person fleeing from ground zero that day would have collected a sample of the dust and saved it for six years?

[Guest]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I am quite sure there are other samples of the WTC debris in dozens of locations in NY and/or the landfills to which the WTC debris was carted in NJ. Some of them will be within municipal custody, or some institutional custody. Those would be some fairly substantial landfills. How many tens of thousands of metric tons of debris all collected in a pile? It would be entirely straightforward to do random wide sampling through all that debris to reconstruct the presence of flakes of fully assembled micronized thermite.

See how approachable the topic becomes, once the angst and position taking are removed? What would be the potential for refuting say, the result of 100 samplings, taken from the core of the landfill to which the WTC was trucked? This is one material that will continue to sit there inertly for decades. Say you found nano-particle processed thermite in 1/6 of those samples?

Then say a dozen metallurgical specialists could be summoned to confirm that nano-particle processed thermite cannot exist anywhere other than via manufacture? Well the 9/11 truthers give me a real headache - but I will tell you this much - If I saw this inquiry proceed that far, come in positive for 1/6 of the samples containing micronized thermite, and then the inquiry died there - speaking for myself that would raise my own antennae.

Don's story had a point which most rational people would instantly grasp here. ***any*** traces of this material - thermite - in the vicinity of the WTC debris is a matter which should be explained by scientific method, including statistical probability, microanalysis, investigation of the original building materials which constructed the WTC in the 1970's - the works.

That would be a scrupulous approach. I continue to think the entire conspiracy thesis is rubbish - but I also think that scoffing at the preliminary finding of thermite anywhere near downtown Manhattan is total rubbish as far as a mature industrialised nation's appropriate level of due diligence. Think just of the insurance companies and claims, and the payouts involved to recall what due process would automatically require in any other instance if thermite were found.

It is roughly the equivalent of an investigation at the scene of a murder, where an assailant is presumed to have employed a blunt instrument, yet gunpowder was found in "trace quantities". The dismissal of trace nanoparticle thermite in this instance would be the rough equivalent of dismissing the trace quantities of gunpowder as a "specious detour outside the chain of custody" to that investigation. That is one rubbishy investigative approach, and rubbishy methodology, IMO.

Luke,

Did you read the actual article at the Open Chemical Physics Journal (where you have to pay to have your article published)? Here's how the samples were obtained.

The earliest-collected sample came from Mr. Frank Delessio
who, according to his videotaped testimony [17], was
on the Manhattan side of the Brooklyn Bridge about the time
the second tower, the North Tower, fell to the ground. He
saw the tower fall and was enveloped by the resulting thick
dust which settled throughout the area. He swept a handful
of the dust from a rail on the pedestrian walkway near the
end of the bridge, about ten minutes after the fall of the
North Tower. He then went to visit his friend, Mr. Tom
Breidenbach, carrying the dust in his hand, and the two of
them discussed the dust and decided to save it in a plastic
bag. On 11/15/2007, Breidenbach sent a portion of this dust

to Dr. Jones for analysis.

The source of the sample material alone would have kept this from being published in a real peer-reviewed journal. Apart from that, ask yourself: does it seem at all plausible that a person fleeing from ground zero that day would have collected a sample of the dust and saved it for six years?

[jtabeb]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

I am quite sure there are other samples of the WTC debris in dozens of locations in NY and/or the landfills to which the WTC debris was carted in NJ. Some of them will be within municipal custody, or some institutional custody. Those would be some fairly substantial landfills. How many tens of thousands of metric tons of debris all collected in a pile? It would be entirely straightforward to do random wide sampling through all that debris to reconstruct the presence of flakes of fully assembled micronized thermite.

See how approachable the topic becomes, once the angst and position taking are removed? What would be the potential for refuting say, the result of 100 samplings, taken from the core of the landfill to which the WTC was trucked? This is one material that will continue to sit there inertly for decades. Say you found nano-particle processed thermite in 1/6 of those samples?

Then say a dozen metallurgical specialists could be summoned to confirm that nano-particle processed thermite cannot exist anywhere other than via manufacture? Well the 9/11 truthers give me a real headache - but I will tell you this much - If I saw this inquiry proceed that far, come in positive for 1/6 of the samples containing micronized thermite, and then the inquiry died there - speaking for myself that would raise my own antennae.

Don's story had a point which most rational people would instantly grasp here. ***any*** traces of this material - thermite - in the vicinity of the WTC debris is a matter which should be explained by scientific method, including statistical probability, microanalysis, investigation of the original building materials which constructed the WTC in the 1970's - the works.

That would be a scrupulous approach. I continue to think the entire conspiracy thesis is rubbish - but I also think that scoffing at the preliminary finding of thermite anywhere near downtown Manhattan is total rubbish as far as a mature industrialised nation's appropriate level of due diligence. Think just of the insurance companies and claims, and the payouts involved to recall what due process would automatically require in any other instance if thermite were found.

It is roughly the equivalent of an investigation at the scene of a murder, where an assailant is presumed to have employed a blunt instrument, yet gunpowder was found in "trace quantities". The dismissal of trace nanoparticle thermite in this instance would be the rough equivalent of dismissing the trace quantities of gunpowder as a "specious detour outside the chain of custody" to that investigation. That is one rubbishy investigative approach, and rubbishy methodology, IMO.

I don't think you can look at the question impartially.

EVERYONE can understand the implication if the information turned out to be correct. N'ough said, and I'll leave it at that. (by that I mean if you REALLY look at the subject scrupulously, you'd have to prepared for what would result from it).



The admin here have made it clear that this topic is not open to debate on this forum.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

Events such as this, in the fog of war, become litmus tests of the commentators. The litmus test results for myself were dramatic - the litmus paper ignited :eek: :rolleyes:, leaving traces of thermite ;).

As with other political topics here, I will make no effort to persuade those of different views, for that task seems futile. I can only speak for myself.

Power and corruption go hand in hand. Human civilization has reached a quite remarkable peak of both with an especially high concentration along the Washington DC to New York corridor. I remain entirely certain that there were more explosives involved than just those two airplanes, and more insiders who knew or facilitated the operation than just those 19 Muslims and their Islamic superiors.

Somehow additional explosives, put in place before 9/11, collapsed the central supports in a controlled demolition. Somehow some other rich and/or powerful entities knew of this ahead of time and facilitated or acquiesced in this operation. Given the level of corruption and power we are still seeing unravel in this financial collapse, and given that these power elite will not go quietly into the night, I can only wonder what are they going to do for an encore?

The Power Meisters must know that next time the risk of their scheme unraveling on the internet before they can innoculate the masses with their lies will be too great to risk.

I predict a Web Holiday, sometime within minutes following the next such shocking event.

[Guest]

Re: 9-11 Conspiracy Theories

JTABEB - when you make a comment like that, I get a picture in my mind of someone sitting on the potty with a tight sphincter. :rolleyes:

I don't think you can look at the question impartially.

EVERYONE can understand the implication if the information turned out to be correct. N'ough said, and I'll leave it at that. (by that I mean if you REALLY look at the subject scrupulously, you'd have to prepared for what would result from it).

The admin here have made it clear that this topic is not open to debate on this forum.