The American Civil war...Version 2 !

[cjppjc]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

I agree, low probability. I think the government knows better than to try it. Better to turn the people into economic slaves which, obviously, is much easier to get away with.

See low propability. But not impossible. And as Tombat said "One does have to be completely blind to history to think that the freedoms we have can't be lost very rapidly if we're not careful.."

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

And how is that a plot to confiscate our guns, undertaken in secret?

That is a plot to attack the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments undertaken in secret. The 2nd amendment is for the Democrats to handle.

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

That is a plot to attack the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments undertaken in secret. The 2nd amendment is for the Democrats to handle.

That is not a plot to attack those amendments. Just saying that it is doesn't make it so.

None of the Amendments has ever been absolute. They've always been balanced by the needs of society at large. The First Amendment does not, for example, give one the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater. The 4th Amendment includes the Plain View Exception. The Second Amendment doesn't give you the right to own a nuclear warhead. And so on.

The Patriot Act strikes a new balance, and it does so in ways that I find unacceptable. But to argue that it was a plot hatched in 20 days to attack six of the amendments of the Bill of Rights is just ludicrous.

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

I think it's difficult to argue the case for American freedom when we imprison more of our population that any other developed country. For the large portion of non-violent "criminals" it's not such a free country.
Hey, want to talk about Iran/Contra and the heroine put on the streets by the CIA while the Feds imprisoned thousands in the drug war.

Well no, criminals doing jail time are not free. I don't think crack addicts should be doing jail time, but neither do I think someone who spray-paints a wall in Singapore should be cained, or that a Muslim in France who insists on wearing a veil to school should be expelled, or that someone in England who criticizes a public figure should be hauled into court on libel charges.

We're talking degrees here and I stand by my statement.

That old canard about the USG putting heroine on the street actually started out as a story about how the CIA invented crack cocaine to imprison the African American population. It has been so thoroughly debunked that I'm amazed it's being trotted out by anyone of above-average intelligence.

[raja]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

You guys sound a lot like the "black helicopters" crowd from the 90s. Calm down. Nobody's planning to confiscate anyone's guns. Sheesh.

I agree with Prazak . . . you guys are getting a little too worked up IMO. Not that gov't suppression couldn't happen, it's just that the signs are not there yet showing that it's immanent or even brewing.

At this point I'm more afraid of violence by the people -- in response to a collapsing economy -- than I am of gov't misuse of power. Gov't will probably exert a positive influence in keeping order . . . .

[Uno]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Is it just me or does this stuff start everytime the democrates get elected in the USA?

I wonder how long before the militia in Montana starts up again?

You know the 12 fat republican guys that were supposed to storm D.C. and start a civil war if a liberal, socialist, commie, pagen President ignored the consitution, trampled on American's rights, ect..

I've always wondered what happened to those guys when GW Bush did the same?

[Uno]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Ha Ha, I looked up Montana Militia. Seems liked Clinton shut most of them down and so they became the Y2K end of world militia. When the world did not end, they probably became mortgage brokers.

I will bet anyone $100,000 that under Obama there is a new "growth opportunity" in right wing American nut cases. LOL.

http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/mom....ked=3&item=mom

You'al better move to Montana and sign up for the new effort: http://www.militiaofmontana.com/

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

That is not a plot to attack those amendments. Just saying that it is doesn't make it so.

None of the Amendments has ever been absolute. They've always been balanced by the needs of society at large. The First Amendment does not, for example, give one the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theater. The 4th Amendment includes the Plain View Exception. The Second Amendment doesn't give you the right to own a nuclear warhead. And so on.

The Patriot Act strikes a new balance, and it does so in ways that I find unacceptable. But to argue that it was a plot hatched in 20 days to attack six of the amendments of the Bill of Rights is just ludicrous.

The patriot act was written years before it was introduced, not in response to 9/11. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

The patriot act was written years before it was introduced, not in response to 9/11. That's the point I'm trying to make.

When, by whom, specifically, and exhibiting what intent to destroy the Bill of Rights? And according to what credible sources?

[D-Mack]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

When, by whom, specifically, and exhibiting what intent to destroy the Bill of Rights? And according to what credible sources?

Not what you were looking for exactly, but it might help


The USA PATRIOT Act Was Planned Before 9/11
by Jennifer Van Bergen
t r u t h o u t | 20 May, 2002

U.S. sought attack on al-Qaida
White House given plan days before Sept. 11


By Jim Miklaszewski and Alex Johnson
msnbc.com and NBC News

WASHINGTON, May 16, 2002 - President Bush was expected to sign detailed plans for a worldwide war against al-Qaida two days before Sept. 11 but did not have the chance before the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, U.S. and foreign sources told NBC News.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4587368/

[D-Mack]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

When, by whom, specifically, and exhibiting what intent to destroy the Bill of Rights? And according to what credible sources?

Not what you were looking for exactly, but it might help


The USA PATRIOT Act Was Planned Before 9/11
by Jennifer Van Bergen
t r u t h o u t | 20 May, 2002

U.S. sought attack on al-Qaida
White House given plan days before Sept. 11


By Jim Miklaszewski and Alex Johnson
msnbc.com and NBC News

WASHINGTON, May 16, 2002 - President Bush was expected to sign detailed plans for a worldwide war against al-Qaida two days before Sept. 11 but did not have the chance before the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, U.S. and foreign sources told NBC News.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4587368/

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Ms Van Bergen discredits herself with lines like this: "The Oklahoma City bombing, for which there exists a significant body of evidence of a shadow government operation, was used as justification for the enactment of the very provisions lawmakers had previously found most constitutionally troublesome."

She then goes on to point out well-covered aspects about the Patriot Act that many people, myself included, find to be over-reaching. Courts have begun to whittle back some of those worst excesses. Hopefully the legislation will be further amended when it expires at the end of this year.

That some of the measures were discussed before and rejected just doesn't show a shadowy conspiracy to gut the Constitution, folks.

Again, the protections in the Bill of Rights have always been balanced against other societal interests. They're not absolute. Sometimes the balance gets thrown too far in one direction, and the system corrects itself, as it is doing now.

[D-Mack]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Ms Van Bergen discredits herself with lines like this: "The Oklahoma City bombing, for which there exists a significant body of evidence of a shadow government operation, was used as justification for the enactment of the very provisions lawmakers had previously found most constitutionally troublesome."

Like multiple explosives found at OKC ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMrYeMTXifc

Nichols says bombing was FBI op
Published: Thursday, Feb. 22, 2007 1:02 p.m. MST

The only surviving convicted criminal in the April 19, 1995, bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City is saying his co-conspirator, Timothy McVeigh, told him he was taking orders from a top FBI official in orchestrating the bombing.


A declaration from Terry Lynn Nichols, filed in U.S. District Court in Salt Lake City, has proven to be one of the most detailed confessions by Nichols to date about his involvement in the bombing as well as the involvement of others. However, one congressman who has investigated the bombings remains skeptical of Nichols' claims.

...

The most shocking allegation in the 19-page signed declaration is Nichols' assertion that the whole bombing plot was an FBI operation and that McVeigh let slip during a bout of anger that he was taking instruction from former FBI official Larry Potts.
...
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,660197443,00.html

[skidder]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

HR-45, The Blair-Holt firearm licensing and record of sale act.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/text

Some of the highlights are as follows:

"1. Require licensing for anybody that owns a gun.
2. Would require photographs and a thumbprint
3. Would require passage of a test that covers:
(A) the safe storage of firearms, particularly in the vicinity of persons who have not attained 18 years of age;
(B) the safe handling of firearms;
(C) the use of firearms in the home and the risks associated with such use;
(D) the legal responsibilities of firearms owners, including Federal, State, and local laws relating to requirements for the possession and storage of firearms, and relating to reporting requirements with respect to firearms; and
(E) any other subjects, as the Attorney General determines to be appropriate;

mandates licensing, registration and safe storage for handguns and semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines. It also provides for inspection, so you surrender your fourth amendment rights by being licensed. It also requires reporting of Lost and Stolen firearms, and you must inform the federal government if you change addresses."


This legislation is clearly a violation of the second amendment. What is amazing to me is that the politicians that introduced it haven't been recalled for that act. To me it appears that there is an ever increasing attack on our liberties by our politicians. Why? Don't these idiots have children?
If you haven't done so, please write your senators and congressmen to oppose this BS legislation (HR-45)

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Like multiple explosives found at OKC ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMrYeMTXifc

Sorry, that just doesn't come close to proving that the USG was complicit in the bombing. Flights of logic here.

And when McVeigh tells Nichols that he was taking orders from the FBI, you find that persuasive?

I'm amazed that a law professor at the New School for Social Research buys into that. Makes me wonder about the standards over there.

I can't be on this thread anymore. No time for tin foil hats.