The American Civil war...Version 2 !

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

There are millions of gun owners in Canada who haven't registered, and there are millions who have. Periodically there's an amnesty designed to get the unregistered to come forth and register, as happens sometimes in jurisdictions in the U.S. with gun registration requirements (eg, District of Columbia). I don't see how this supports the notion that there's a government out there trying to seize our firearms, whether in Canada or the States -- let alone the hyperventilating about beatings, rapes, and enabling those who are gutting our fundamental Constitutional freedoms.

Jeesh.

How many times does history have to repeat itself before you people see a pattern? What kind of tyrranical legislation has to be passed before you realise our rights are under attack? The "Patriot" Act wasn't enough? How many amendments have to be stomped on before you see that your government doesn't give a damn about the constitution. How big does our military budget have to get before you understand we live in an oppressive empire. Add up the defense budgets of China, Russia, and the UK and you'll have 1/10th the amount the U.S. spends. How many closed door sessions does Congress have to have before you see that your government doesn't answer to you, your representative don't represent you?

Jeesh.

[mercerbear]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

The Nazi takeover of Germany was not a secret conspiracy. It was out in the open, plenty of people saw it coming and got the hell out. It's no more analogous than is the Santa Claus lark that someone else cited peremptorily.

Sure lots of people saw it coming and others, numbering in the MILLIONS, did not see it coming or refused to accept it because it was too crazy to actually happen. What's that popular saying on this board? I think it is, "history doesn't repeat, it rhymes." It's obvious which camp you are in and I doubt there is any point discussing the matter with you further. The government called of the exercise in Arcadia, which was the point of this thread before we began speaking more broadly about the 2nd amendment, so that's a small victory, for now.

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Sure lots of people saw it coming and others, numbering in the MILLIONS, did not see it coming or refused to accept it because it was too crazy to actually happen. What's that popular saying on this board? I think it is, "history doesn't repeat, it rhymes." It's obvious which camp you are in and I doubt there is any point discussing the matter with you further. The government called of the exercise in Arcadia, which was the point of this thread before we began speaking more broadly about the 2nd amendment, so that's a small victory, for now.

I'm a pretty careful student of history, including the history of conspiracy theories in this great democracy. And my view of human nature borders on misanthropy, so it's not as if I think the government or any collective of human beings isn't capable of horrible things.

So the government called for the exercise in Arcadia: and that proves a conspiracy to confiscate firearms how? History is repeating itself how?

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

How many times does history have to repeat itself before you people see a pattern? What kind of tyrranical legislation has to be passed before you realise our rights are under attack? The "Patriot" Act wasn't enough? How many amendments have to be stomped on before you see that your government doesn't give a damn about the constitution. How big does our military budget have to get before you understand we live in an oppressive empire. Add up the defense budgets of China, Russia, and the UK and you'll have 1/10th the amount the U.S. spends. How many closed door sessions does Congress have to have before you see that your government doesn't answer to you, your representative don't represent you?

Jeesh.

Do you travel much? The U.S. is one of the freest countries on earth. One doesn't have to be blind to history or in the grip of pollyanna to believe that you are completely misapprehending reality.

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

(2) the alleged conspiracy at hand is similar in character to other alleged conspiracies that were equally absurd on their faces and proved, in time, baseless, as this one will surely be.

What world do you live in?
Here on planet earth there have been numerous conspiracies of which many were successfully hidden and carried out. Do you think Stalin got all those people into Gulags by telling the truth. How many examples would you like me to provide? Hell I'll even keep it to this country, and I'll keep it only to the conspiracies that have been proven true, I'll even give references to congressional hearings if you like. Here's just a taste.
MK Ultra Program Hearings
And finally, officially admitted.

Time to wake up!

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

What world do you live in?
Here on planet earth there have been numerous conspiracies of which many were successfully hidden and carried out. Do you think Stalin got all those people into Gulags by telling the truth. How many examples would you like me to provide? Hell I'll even keep it to this country, and I'll keep it only to the conspiracies that have been proven true, I'll even give references to congressional hearings if you like. Here's just a taste.
MK Ultra Program Hearings
And finally, officially admitted.

Time to wake up!

Again, this is nothing that was carried out in secret. Entire armies were marshalled to march entire peoples off to other parts of the old Soviet Union.

Obviously there's no point in our carrying this on. You seem to think you're living in a police state that's plotting secretly to squash what few remaining freedoms you have. I disagree. I'll just move along now.

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Do you travel much? The U.S. is one of the freest countries on earth. One doesn't have to be blind to history or in the grip of pollyanna to believe that you are completely misapprehending reality.

I've been to Malaysia, Bahrain, Singapore, The United Arab Emirates, Guam, Hong Kong, and a few others. Agreed, we live in ONE OF the most free countries on earth, not the most free and not the least, but this is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is that One does have to be completely blind to history to think that the freedoms we have can't be lost very rapidly if we're not careful.

[DToM67]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

There are millions of gun owners in Canada who haven't registered, and there are millions who have...

www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/pol-leg/hist/pdfs/histo_e.pdf

They ARE in breach of the law... They are behaving criminally. To buy/posses firearms you must first apply for a Firearms Acquisition Certificate (FAC).

-Handguns have been restricted and licensed since 1934
-In 1993 additional legislation severely restricted the acquisition, ownership, storage and transportation of firearms
-The Federal Government introduced Bill C-68 on February 14, 1995, the bill was granted on December 5, 1995.
-Bill C-86 stipulated that all firearm owners in Canada must be licensed by January 1, 2003
-The government claims that 80% of the firearm owners have complied and are now licensed
-The cost of this registration of firearm owners is now estimated to be over 900 million dollars (as of 1998).

Something that isn't publicized is the FACT that if you have an FAC/are a registered gun owner it comes up along with your name when the police run your license plate or similar. AND if the police have reason to visit your home they prepare differently than if you were not listed as a gun owner. I personally believe this is not a good thing, and wouldn't want to be registered on such a system which (like so many others) captures data that can be ab/used for purposes never agreed to nor disseminated at the time of such legislation becoming law.

[mercerbear]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

I'm a pretty careful student of history, including the history of conspiracy theories in this great democracy. And my view of human nature borders on misanthropy, so it's not as if I think the government or any collective of human beings isn't capable of horrible things.

So the government called for the exercise in Arcadia: and that proves a conspiracy to confiscate firearms how? History is repeating itself how?

Ha ha, your "careful" study of history does not seem to be paying off. History rhymes, in this case, because a majority of our populace is either unaware or in denial of the evidence that government has been moving in on our civil liberties for years now.

Being as the military exercise that was being discussed initially has been canceled and we are now stuck in an unproductive cycle of debating whether or not there is evidence to support claims that government is actively undermining civil liberties, this is going to by my last post on this thread. For the record, I think you are as crazy as you think I am

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Ha ha, your "careful" study of history does not seem to be paying off. History rhymes, in this case, because a majority of our populace is either unaware or in denial of the evidence that government has been moving in on our civil liberties for years now.

Being as the military exercise that was being discussed initially has been canceled and we are now stuck in an unproductive cycle of debating whether or not there is evidence to support claims that government is actively undermining civil liberties, this is going to by my last post on this thread. For the record, I think you are as crazy as you think I am

I agree with you there. I don't doubt that the government is actively undermining civil liberties. Always has and, fortunately, we live in a culture with a strong streak of individualism and distrust of government and a society with a dynamic set of organizations outside the government structure that seek to brush the authorities back when they overreach.

While I don't doubt that governments routinely overstep their authority, I do doubt that they're plotting to confiscate our guns. Big difference there. And I still don't see how the military exercise proved the existence of said plot.

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

You really think in 30 days they've formulated a diabolical confiscation plan, managed to keep it a secret, and are "testing the waters" now?

Okeedokee. Whatever.

So am I to assume you believe that the Patriot Act was written in the 20 days between 9/11/01 and 10/02/01 when it was introduced in congress?

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

I've been to Malaysia, Bahrain, Singapore, The United Arab Emirates, Guam, Hong Kong, and a few others. Agreed, we live in ONE OF the most free countries on earth, not the most free and not the least, but this is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is that One does have to be completely blind to history to think that the freedoms we have can't be lost very rapidly if we're not careful.

I agree with you there: freedom requires constant vigilance. And I think this country is more vigilant on that point than nearly all others. Here is an example: people gear up in liberty-or-death tirades over phantom threats to freedom, like those black U.N. helicopters that never existed, or the latest plot to confiscate our guns.

And I would argue that the U.S. not just ONE OF the most free. I would argue it's one of the one or two or three most free. I've lived in several of the (European) countries that are often held out as examples of societies the U.S. should aspire to. And I can tell you those places are wonderful in many ways, superior to the U.S. in important respects, but are certainly not characterized by greater individual liberty.

[Prazak]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

So am I to assume you believe that the Patriot Act was written in the 20 days between 9/11/01 and 10/02/01 when it was introduced in congress?

And how is that a plot to confiscate our guns, undertaken in secret?

[tombat1913]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

I agree with you there: freedom requires constant vigilance. And I think this country is more vigilant on that point than nearly all others. Here is an example: people gear up in liberty-or-death tirades over phantom threats to freedom, like those black U.N. helicopters that never existed, or the latest plot to confiscate our guns.

And I would argue that the U.S. not just ONE OF the most free. I would argue it's one of the one or two or three most free. I've lived in several of the (European) countries that are often held out as examples of societies the U.S. should aspire to. And I can tell you those places are wonderful in many ways, superior to the U.S. in important respects, but are certainly not characterized by greater individual liberty.

I think it's difficult to argue the case for American freedom when we imprison more of our population that any other developed country. For the large portion of non-violent "criminals" it's not such a free country.
Hey, want to talk about Iran/Contra and the heroine put on the streets by the CIA while the Feds imprisoned thousands in the drug war.

[Mega]

Re: The American Civil war...Version 2 !

Scaled back?
WATCH THEM!
Mike