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The End of a Liberal Arts Education

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  • The End of a Liberal Arts Education

    I work in a well established private research University, and we are having a pivotal meeting this week to announce major restructuring. They hope to make up for the shortfalls by increasing the class size by 10-12%, decreasing faculty by 10% over time through attrition, and introducing a summer semester to handle the increase in student body without the added expense of developing new housing. This comes after having already made significant budget cuts across the board. As the crisis deepens, I imagine the means of decreasing faculty will become less benign. Tenure is not so safe as it may seem, you can eliminate tenured faculty by eliminating the department in which they are housed.

    This op-ed from the NYT is quite telling. I do not agree with all he says. But I do think that higher education in the US may come through this process reshaped in a manner that will sacrifice the best things that a liberal arts education has to offer. Though the liberal arts actually did it to themselves by branching off into many cockeyed idiocies, and redefining the 'liberal' in liberal arts, such that a student may be versed in aspects of queer theory but not know how to read true classics or how to write a term paper, let alone a decent memo. But that is a story for another day and a different website.


    The New York Times: Posted January 18, 2009:

    10:00 pm, Sunday evening

    "The Last Professor"
    Stanley Fish

    In previous columns and in a recent book I have argued that higher education, properly understood, is distinguished by the absence of a direct and designed relationship between its activities and measurable effects in the world.

    This is a very old idea that has received periodic re-formulations. Here is a statement by the philosopher Michael Oakeshott that may stand as a representative example: “There is an important difference between learning which is concerned with the degree of understanding necessary to practice a skill, and learning which is expressly focused upon an enterprise of understanding and explaining.”

    Understanding and explaining what? The answer is understanding and explaining anything as long as the exercise is not performed with the purpose of intervening in the social and political crises of the moment, as long, that is, as the activity is not regarded as instrumental – valued for its contribution to something more important than itself.

    This view of higher education as an enterprise characterized by a determined inutility has often been challenged, and the debates between its proponents and those who argue for a more engaged university experience are lively and apparently perennial. The question such debates avoid is whether the Oakeshottian ideal (celebrated before him by Aristotle, Kant and Max Weber, among others) can really flourish in today’s educational landscape. It may be fun to argue its merits (as I have done), but that argument may be merely academic – in the pejorative sense of the word – if it has no support in the real world from which it rhetorically distances itself. In today’s climate, does it have a chance?

    In a new book, “The Last Professors: The Corporate University and the Fate of the Humanities,” Frank Donoghue (as it happens, a former student of mine) asks that question and answers “No.”

    Donoghue begins by challenging the oft-repeated declaration that liberal arts education in general and the humanities in particular face a crisis, a word that suggests an interruption of a normal state of affairs and the possibility of restoring the natural order of things.

    “Such a vision of restored stability,” says Donoghue, “is a delusion” because the conditions to which many seek a return – healthy humanities departments populated by tenure-track professors who discuss books with adoring students in a cloistered setting – have largely vanished. Except in a few private wealthy universities (functioning almost as museums), the splendid and supported irrelevance of humanist inquiry for its own sake is already a thing of the past. In “ two or three generations,” Donoghue predicts, “humanists . . . will become an insignificant percentage of the country’s university instructional workforce.”

    How has this happened? According to Donoghue, it’s been happening for a long time, at least since 1891, when Andrew Carnegie congratulated the graduates of the Pierce College of Business for being “ fully occupied in obtaining a knowledge of shorthand and typewriting” rather than wasting time “upon dead languages.”

    Industrialist Richard Teller Crane was even more pointed in his 1911 dismissal of what humanists call the “life of the mind.” No one who has “a taste for literature has the right to be happy” because “the only men entitled to happiness . . . are those who are useful.”

    The opposition between this view and the view held by the heirs of Matthew Arnold’s conviction that poetry will save us could not be more stark. But Donoghue counsels us not to think that the two visions are locked in a struggle whose outcome is uncertain. One vision, rooted in an “ethic of productivity” and efficiency, has, he tells us, already won the day; and the proof is that in the very colleges and universities where the life of the mind is routinely celebrated, the material conditions of the workplace are configured by the business model that scorns it.

    The best evidence for this is the shrinking number of tenured and tenure-track faculty and the corresponding rise of adjuncts, part-timers more akin to itinerant workers than to embedded professionals.

    Humanities professors like to think that this is a temporary imbalance and talk about ways of redressing it, but Donoghue insists that this development, planned by no one but now well under way, cannot be reversed. Universities under increasing financial pressure, he explains, do not “hire the most experienced teachers, but rather the cheapest teachers.” Tenured and tenure-track teachers now make up only 35 percent of the pedagogical workforce and “this number is steadily falling.”

    Once adjuncts are hired to deal with an expanding student body (and the student body is always expanding), budgetary planners find it difficult to dispense with the savings they have come to rely on; and “as a result, an adjunct workforce, however imperceptible its origins . . . has now mushroomed into a significant fact of academic life.”

    What is happening in traditional universities where the ethos of the liberal arts is still given lip service is the forthright policy of for-profit universities, which make no pretense of valuing what used to be called the “higher learning.” John Sperling, founder of the group that gave us Phoenix University, is refreshingly blunt: “Coming here is not a rite of passage. We are not trying to develop value systems or go in for that ‘expand their minds’” nonsense.

    The for-profit university is the logical end of a shift from a model of education centered in an individual professor who delivers insight and inspiration to a model that begins and ends with the imperative to deliver the information and skills necessary to gain employment.

    In this latter model , the mode of delivery – a disc, a computer screen, a video hook-up – doesn’t matter so long as delivery occurs. Insofar as there are real-life faculty in the picture, their credentials and publications (if they have any) are beside the point, for they are just “delivery people.”

    Sperling understands the difficulty of achieving accreditation for his institution as a proxy “for cultural battles between defenders of 800 years of educational (and largely religious) traditions, and innovation that was based on the ideas of the marketplace – transparency, efficiency, productivity and accountability.”

    Those ideas have now triumphed (Carnegie and Crane are victorious), and this means, Donoghue concludes, “that all fields deemed impractical, such as philosophy, art history, and literature, will henceforth face a constant danger of being deemed unnecessary.” And as a corollary “professors will come to be seen by everyone (not just those outside the academy) as unaffordable anomalies.”

    In his preface, Donoghue tells us that he will “offer nothing in the way of uplifting solutions to the problems [he] describes.” In the end, however, he can’t resist recommending something and he advises humanists to acquire “a thorough familiarity with how the university works,” for “only by studying the institutional histories of scholarly research, of tenure, of academic status, and . . . of the ever-changing college curriculum, can we prepare ourselves for the future.”

    But – and this is to his credit – he doesn’t hold out the slightest hope that this future we may come to understand will have a place in it for us.

    People sometimes believe that they were born too late or too early. After reading Donoghue’s book, I feel that I have timed it just right, for it seems that I have had a career that would not have been available to me had I entered the world 50 years later. Just lucky, I guess. - Stanley Fish
    Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.

  • #2
    Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

    http://www.lawschool.com/collegehoax.htm


    The Great College Hoax
    Law Students in Heavy Debt
    Kathy Kristof 02.02.09
    Forbes As steadily as ivy creeps up the walls of its well-groomed campuses, the education industrial complex has cultivated the image of college as a sure-fire path to a life of social and economic privilege.
    Joel Kellum says he's living proof that the claim is a lie. A 40-year-old Los Angeles resident, Kellum did everything he was supposed to do to get ahead in life. He worked hard as a high schooler, got into the University of Virginia and graduated with a bachelor's degree in history.
    Accepted into the California Western School of Law, a private San Diego institution, Kellum couldn't swing the $36,000 in annual tuition with financial aid and part-time work. So he did what friends and professors said was the smart move and took out $60,000 in student loans.
    Kellum's law school sweetheart, Jennifer Coultas, did much the same. By the time they graduated in 1995, the couple was $194,000 in debt. They eventually married and each landed a six-figure job. Yet even with Kellum moonlighting, they had to scrounge to come up with $145,000 in loan payments. With interest accruing at up to 12% a year, that whittled away only $21,000 in principal. Their remaining bill: $173,000 and counting.
    Kellum and Coultas divorced last year. Each cites their struggle with law school debt as a major source of stress on their marriage. "Two people with this much debt just shouldn't be together," Kellum says.
    The two disillusioned attorneys were victims of an unfolding education hoax on the middle class that's just as insidious, and nearly as sweeping, as the housing debacle. The ingredients are strikingly similar, too: Misguided easy-money policies that are encouraging the masses to go into debt; a self-serving establishment trading in half-truths that exaggerate the value of its product; plus a Wall Street money machine dabbling in outright fraud as it foists unaffordable debt on the most vulnerable marks.
    College graduates will earn $1 million more than those with only a high school diploma, brags Mercy College radio ads running in the New York area. The $1 million shibboleth is a favorite of college barkers.
    Like many good cons, this one contains a kernel of truth. Census figures show that college grads earn an average of $57,500 a year, which is 82% more than the $31,600 high school alumni make. Multiply the $25,900 difference by the 40 years the average person works and, sure enough, it comes to a tad over $1 million.
    But anybody who has gotten a passing grade in statistics knows what's wrong with this line of argument. A correlation between B.A.s and incomes is not proof of cause and effect. It may reflect nothing more than the fact that the economy rewards smart people and smart people are likely to go to college. To cite the extreme and obvious example: Bill Gates is rich because he knows how to run a business, not because he matriculated at Harvard. Finishing his degree wouldn't have increased his income.
    All the while students have been lulled into thinking of the extra $1 million that will be theirs, they have been forced to disgorge an ever larger fraction of it in pursuit of the degree. While the premium that college grads earn over high schoolers has remained relatively constant over the past five years, the cost of acquiring a degree has risen at twice the rate of inflation, dramatically undermining any value a sheepskin adds.
    Offsetting that million-dollar income discrepancy is the $46,700 four-year cost of tuition, fees, books, room and board at a public school and $99,900 at a private one--even after financial aid, scholarships and grants. Add all this to the equation and college grads don't pull even with high school grads in lifetime income until age 33 on average, the College Board says. Even that doesn't include the $125,000 in pay students forgo over four years.
    "I call it the million-dollar misunderstanding," says Mark Schneider, vice president of the American Institutes for Research, of the prevailing propaganda.
    Not only are college numbers spun. Some are patently spurious, says Richard Sander, a law professor at UCLA. Law schools lure in minority students to improve diversity rankings without disclosing that less than half of African-Americans who enter these programs ever pass the bar. Schools goose employment statistics by temporarily hiring new grads and spotlighting kids who land top-paying jobs, while glossing over far-lower average incomes. The one certainty: The average law grad owes $100,000 in student debt.
    "There are a lot of aspects of selling education that are tinged with consumer fraud," Sander says. "There is a definite conspiracy to lead students down a primrose path."
    Warped as the numbers are, they don't begin to account for the hidden cost of higher education: financing it. Borrowing has doubled over the past decade, to roughly $85 billion in new student loans in the 2007--08 academic year, bringing total student debt owed to well over half a trillion dollars. The average borrower went $19,200 into debt for a diploma in 2004, a 58% increase after inflation since 1993, according to the Project on Student Debt.
    The proportion of students who graduate with more than $40,000 in debt jumped sixfold during that period, to 7.7% of the 1 million grads in 2004, or 77,500 people. Most will struggle for more than a decade to work it off, assuming relatively low 6.8% interest rates, the Project on Student Debt says.
    For many, the terms are far worse. A decade ago nearly all student lending was of the low-cost, federally guaranteed variety, most of it with 6% to 8% interest kicking in only after a student left school. As costs outpaced such financing over the past decade, the share of student loans from "private" lenders rose from 7% to 23% of the market, or $20 billion in the 2007--08 academic year.
    The rise of private student lending closely paralleled the subprime mortgage boom, which went from 8% of home loan originations in 2003 to 20% in 2006, before the housing meltdown sent that mortgage sector over a cliff. Private student loans resemble subprime mortgages in other ways, too. As banks and brokers did with subprime home loans, colleges and the lenders in cahoots with them commonly market private student loans alongside lower-cost alternatives, blurring the differences.
    The key one is cost. Many private lenders tack 10% origination fees onto 18% variable interest rates (there is no legal limit), which begin accruing the moment a loan is funded. That has made private loans more than twice as profitable as government-guaranteed ones and lured heavy involvement from Citigroup , Bank of America and Wells Fargo .
    New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo has called private lending "the Wild West of the student loan industry." Some problems he notes smack of subprime mortgage lending: lax disclosure requirements, variable interest rates that compound and make paying off the principal a Sisyphean task, and kickback agreements by which lenders pay loan originators--in this case, colleges--a cut of their revenues.
    State and federal authorities have taken action to curb the outright bribery. No less illustrious institutions of higher learning than Columbia University, New York University and the University of Pennsylvania paid $1 million-plus each to settle charges of wrongdoing in the student loan market.
    Yet investigations still found "troubling, deceptive and often illegal practices . . . involving lenders, educational institutions and financial aid officials," according to Cuomo's office and the Congressional Committee on Education & Labor. Don't count on Washington to provide any more safeguards than it did with housing. Department of Education oversight of the student loan industry has been deemed insufficient by the Government Accountability Office.
    Lacking honest input, three-quarters of high schoolers still seek to go on to college, many deluded about the financial prospects it holds, says American Institutes for Research's Schneider. "Part of the drive is the idea it pays," he says. "We need somebody making more realistic statements about the risks."
    The risks are hefty. Half of students entering college never earn a degree. Six in ten African-Americans depart without one. "Hundreds of thousands of young people leave our higher education system unsuccessfully, burdened with large student loans that must be repaid, but without the benefit of the wages a college degree provides," warned a 2004 Education Trust study.
    Among the half of entering students fortunate enough to get through college, millions go into debt for two-year associate degrees. These alumni outearn high school grads by only $8,400 a year. (Community colleges currently enroll 11.5 million.)
    Tracy Kratzer, 27, enrolled in the International Academy of Design & Technology in Orlando, Fla. in 2003. With visions of making big bucks as a Web designer, she didn't give much thought to the interest rate on her loan from Sallie Mae , the Fannie Mae of student lending. Kratzer didn't know it at the time, but she was part of an experiment that has proved disastrous for borrowers and shareholders of Sallie's parent, SLM Corp. It's called "nontraditional" lending.
    "That's not a sociological term," Albert Lord, chief executive of SLM Corp., told an audience of financial analysts last fall. "It's basically kids and parents with poor credit who are at the wrong schools."
    Sallie Mae was set up by the government in 1972 and began privatizing its ownership in 1997. It began nontraditional lending in the easy-money heyday of 2002, when it cut deals with dozens of trade schools to become their preferred subprime student lender. Over the next four years Sallie doled out about $5 billion to people like Kratzer, waiving the credit scores and cosigners formerly required for its loans.
    The bill arrived last year after nontraditional borrowers began entering the workforce. Of the half no longer studying, Sallie had written off 15% of loans by last June, the most recent period for which it has released figures; another 24% were delinquent. Among traditional loans for four-year universities, writeoffs ran 2% and delinquencies 4.9%.
    SLM set aside $884 million to cover these bad loans in 2007 and posted its first loss. It expects nontraditional-loan writeoffs to peak this year. SLM's stock has lost 80% since the beginning of 2007, wiping out $15 billion in value. Lord, who was unavailable for comment, is a 28-year company veteran. He made $72 million as chief executive in 2007 by unloading SLM stock before it tanked. Sallie largely abandoned nontraditional lending last January.
    That's little consolation to Kratzer. Shortly after graduating with an associate of arts degree, she discovered that the high-paying jobs she'd hoped to qualify for go to people with bachelor's degrees and years of experience. After a bout of unemployment, when she lived off credit cards, Kratzer recently found an hourly job as a clerk at a magazine, where she earns less than the average high school grad. In the meantime her $14,000 student loan has mushroomed to $27,000--more than she makes in a year--and continues to accrue interest at 18% a year. She says collection agents for Sallie and others hound her to hit up relatives for the money she owes.
    "My mom works in a restaurant. My stepdad is in prison," says Kratzer. "There are so many people like me out there. They don't get seen. They don't get heard."
    Mindy Babbitt entered Davenport University in her mid-20s to study accounting. Unable to cover the costs with her previous earnings as a cosmetologist, she took out a $35,000 student loan at 9% interest, figuring her postgraduate income would cover the cost.
    Instead, the entry-level job her bachelor's degree got her barely covered living expenses. Babbitt deferred loan repayments and was then laid off for a time. Now 41 and living in Plainwell, Mich., she is earning $41,000 a year, or about $10,000 more than the average high school graduate makes. But since she graduated, Babbitt's student loan balance has more than doubled, to $87,000, and she despairs she'll never pay it off.
    "Unless I win the lottery or get a job paying a lot more, my student debts are going to follow me to the grave," she says.
    Babbitt is no oddity. In fact, one in four college grads takes home considerably less than the top quartile of high school grads, according to a College Board study. Even some people with doctorates earn less than people without so much as an associate degree, it shows.
    For an indication of how out of touch the degree factories are with economic reality there's no need to pick on UCLA's course in queer musicology or Edith Cowan University's degree in "surf science." U.S. universities also minted 37,000 history degrees in 2006, including 852 Ph.D.s. That for a field with fewer than 500 job openings and average pay of $48,500. Plumbers, by contrast, enjoyed 16,000 new jobs that year and earned only $6,000 less than historians, census figures show.
    Of course, not all history majors want to become historians. For many a bachelor's degree is nothing but a stepping-stone to a professional degree. Joel Kellum is one of those. After graduating from the University of Virginia, he got into California Western. Kellum approached a law professor about the wisdom of borrowing for the tuition.
    "He said, 'Don't worry,'" Kellum recalls. "'We had the same thing when we were in school.'"
    Kellum filled out a fat packet of forms in his school's financial aid office. Weeks later, he says, he got a call asking him to sign over a check to the school without any discussion of the loan terms. Kellum complied.
    Only after he graduated, and his payments came due, did he dig into the details. What Kellum discovered was that, instead of cheap government loans, the bulk of his debt was in Signature loans: variable-rate debt from Sallie Mae. Kellum's variable rate has ticked as high as 9% and his ex-wife's to as much as 12%.
    Like many grads, Kellum and Coultas hit bumps along their career paths. They deferred payments once when they were unemployed and twice more after their children were born. Each time, Kellum says, Sallie Mae tacked on fees for the delay. When he was a few days late making payments, he says, he got hit with more fees, which also accrued interest, and with a scolding.
    "When you're a second late, you get 20 or 30 calls," he says. "It [Sallie Mae's Signature loan] is coated as a sweet government loan, but you can get better interest rates, and better treatment, borrowing from Vito in downtown Brooklyn."
    Like Vito, private student lenders don't dwell on the dollar cost of compound interest. Cathelyn Gregoire says she applied for financial aid at the Tampa campus of the design school Kratzer attended and was assured she'd receive a loan at a fixed 7% rate. Three months after classes began Gregoire received a $14,000 loan. Only after graduating did she discover she was being charged a variable 13.25%, plus a "supplemental fee" of 6%. Her loan balance had jumped to $20,000 by the end of 2007.
    Gregoire is now a plaintiff in a federal suit in Connecticut, accusing Sallie Mae of targeting minorities with deceptive lending. Her lawyers are trying to make it a class action.
    Sallie Mae denies wrongdoing and distributes rate disclosures when students apply for loans, according to spokesperson Thomas Joyce. Sallie's disclosure document warns in capital letters that the rate a borrower sees may not be the one he gets.
    Joyce says Sallie's borrowers receive detailed paperwork within ten days of funding and can rescind their loans then. In reality loan checks often go directly to schools after classes have begun. To rescind a loan a student must get the college to return the money. The student must then find new funding or drop out.
    Education lenders, unlike other consumer financiers, are not required to provide Truth in Lending disclosures before reeling in borrowers. A law passed last year requires advanced disclosure, but not until 2010.
    Get caught in this quagmire and you're stuck for good. Consumers who go on a credit card binge stand a good chance of getting debt discharged in bankruptcy. Not so if they take out a loan to educate themselves. Those loans, per the 2005 bankruptcy law, are not dischargeable. One reason: Without this exception, every student would run through a bankruptcy between graduation and starting a career.
    Who gets stuck with these toxic loans? As with subprime mortgages, the people who can least afford them. A disproportionate number of high-interest student loans go to low-income students attending for-profit institutions, according to a 2008 study by Charlene Wear Simmons, assistant director of the California Research Bureau, an arm of the state government.
    "Borrowing, combined with other risk factors for not completing higher education (such as working too many hours, lack of adequate preparation and part-time attendance), puts many students, especially low-income and first-generation students, at a particular disadvantage," says a 2005 study by Lawrence Gladieux, an education policy consultant, and Laura Perna, assistant professor of education at the University of Pennsylvania.
    It's too late to save the country from the housing finance bubble. But the college bubble is not quite as far along

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

      Don't forget inflation.

      The number of pieces of paper printed by colleges and universities has increased enormously.

      It used to be that a small fraction of the population got those degrees - the value of those pieces of paper was huge. The number of those pieces of paper was small.

      Now, at least partly because of enormous government subsidies, it's huge, and each one is worth a lot less.

      The government at one time thought "education gives you more income, we want everyone should have a higher income, so we'll give more people the opportunity - subsidies, tax cuts, etc ...". Excess capacity. Just like any industry, for example like houses now, the excess drives down the market value.

      This has been completely evident with PhDs in Philosophy and English and a couple of other fields since the 60s, now it's creeping into other fields. Soon it WILL creep into law (maybe already has, I don't know enough lawyers to say). It may not hit medicine too hard because the various medical unions and guilds (AMA to you UStaters, each country has their own) limiting the number of schools and students.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
        Don't forget inflation.

        The number of pieces of paper printed by colleges and universities has increased enormously.

        It used to be that a small fraction of the population got those degrees - the value of those pieces of paper was huge. The number of those pieces of paper was small.

        Now, at least partly because of enormous government subsidies, it's huge, and each one is worth a lot less.

        The government at one time thought "education gives you more income, we want everyone should have a higher income, so we'll give more people the opportunity - subsidies, tax cuts, etc ...". Excess capacity. Just like any industry, for example like houses now, the excess drives down the market value.

        This has been completely evident with PhDs in Philosophy and English and a couple of other fields since the 60s, now it's creeping into other fields. Soon it WILL creep into law (maybe already has, I don't know enough lawyers to say). It may not hit medicine too hard because the various medical unions and guilds (AMA to you UStaters, each country has their own) limiting the number of schools and students.
        I grew up in a family of lawyers and have a cousin in law school now. It has definitely hit this field hard.

        I am constantly amazed by how many people with PhDs do not even know how to think logically. In some fields these days you have 300 freshly minted PhDs chasing 12 jobs or so. With hiring freezes in many colleges and universities, it is bound to become much worse. As fewer students will be able to afford to go to college, there will be even fewer teaching positions in higher ed.

        The other aspect is that contributions to colleges and universities will decrease substantially simply because people are saddled with too much debt. I predict that in the next few years we will see several major universities go out of business.
        Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

          Please detail the situation a little more.

          Is it similar to the MBA case that if you go to a "name" school you are far more likely to get a job in the field, but a lesser known school's grads have a hard time?

          Originally posted by Basil View Post
          I grew up in a family of lawyers and have a cousin in law school now. It has definitely hit this field hard.

          I am constantly amazed by how many people with PhDs do not even know how to think logically. In some fields these days you have 300 freshly minted PhDs chasing 12 jobs or so. With hiring freezes in many colleges and universities, it is bound to become much worse. As fewer students will be able to afford to go to college, there will be even fewer teaching positions in higher ed.

          The other aspect is that contributions to colleges and universities will decrease substantially simply because people are saddled with too much debt. I predict that in the next few years we will see several major universities go out of business.
          For a lot of the humanities the PhD supervisor had to find money to pay the student, and that's it. At some universities, the school doesn't even provide that & the student pays everything.

          It used to be much "better" (fewer students) for science and engineering as the supervising professor had to get grant money for research equipment (nuclear reactors, expensive sensors & computer power for my supervisor) not just grad student stipends.

          these days so much of this is numerical methods that this is being removed as a major obstacle to turning out tons of these PhDs.

          In compsci now for 8 or 9 years there have been the stories (Norm Matloff confirms some) of near - top - of - the - class graduates not getting work in their field.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            Please detail the situation a little more.

            Is it similar to the MBA case that if you go to a "name" school you are far more likely to get a job in the field, but a lesser known school's grads have a hard time?



            For a lot of the humanities the PhD supervisor had to find money to pay the student, and that's it. At some universities, the school doesn't even provide that & the student pays everything.

            It used to be much "better" (fewer students) for science and engineering as the supervising professor had to get grant money for research equipment (nuclear reactors, expensive sensors & computer power for my supervisor) not just grad student stipends.

            these days so much of this is numerical methods that this is being removed as a major obstacle to turning out tons of these PhDs.

            In compsci now for 8 or 9 years there have been the stories (Norm Matloff confirms some) of near - top - of - the - class graduates not getting work in their field.
            Detail which situation? I mentioned several items in the post.
            Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

              the situation facing recent law school graduates from famous & obscure schools.

              Just a few sentences conveying the overall mood.

              Originally posted by Basil View Post
              Detail which situation? I mentioned several items in the post.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                the situation facing recent law school graduates from famous & obscure schools.

                Just a few sentences conveying the overall mood.
                Many recent law school graduates who have worked in the field for several years have recently lost jobs. As a result they are applying for the clerkships for which law school grads usually apply. The trend is so prevalent that law school grads from decent law schools such as BC can't even get interviews. I just had dinner this evening with a friend who works in the public defenders office. She noted that they have been informed of 15% cuts in the months ahead.

                Regarding the state of the field, my grandfather was a judge in the second circuit for over 30 years, and I was fortunate enough to live with him for a few years towards the end of his life. He lamented that the field had been watered down by the proliferation of new law schools. In his opinion this resulted in many less qualified lawyers. For a time there were many jobs for most of them, but, he noted, that this would not always be the case. He also felt that overall there was less appreciation for the rigor that law demands and that there was more abuse of the law than he had ever seen. He was appalled by how many judgeships both Reagan and Bush I had left vacant.
                Cowards die many times before their deaths; the valiant never taste of death but once.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

                  No doubt that debts will be excused in this country at some point. How many thousands of unemployable lawyers with $100k+ in debt are there in the U.S. now?

                  Friday, February 6, 2009 | Modified: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 6:00am
                  Layoffs mount at area law firms
                  Boston Business Journal - by Lisa van der Pool

                  “There are very, very few jobs,” said Brion Bickerton, a partner at the legal staffing firm Major, Lindsey & Africa in Boston. “These people are going to really struggle, and some of them won’t find anything full time for a year-plus. There’s really no place to go.”

                  Law firms that have cut attorneys in recent weeks include Foley Hoag LLP, Choate Hall & Stewart, Fish & Richardson PC, McDermott Will & Emery and Cooley Godward Kronish LLP. But even more firms are thought to have held “stealth” layoffs by cutting associates through poor performance reviews to avoid publicly disclosing the layoffs, according to legal watchers.

                  Judy St. John, a legal recruiter from Boston-based Hoffman Recruiters LLC, has been contacted by laid-off first-year associates who had only been with their law firms for five months, as well as by midlevel associates. She’s also received calls from associates who’ve been cut from firms through so-called bad-performance reviews. St. John said job requests in the legal division of Hoffman Recruiters have gone up 25 percent in recent weeks.

                  [..]

                  “It’s very somber right now,” St. John said. “The only movement really is partners who are taking a long, hard look at their situations. We’ve had many partners call and generally they will say, ‘I’m happy, but it’s time to explore.’ ”

                  Indeed, Stephen Lable, manager of legal recruiting and client relations at Weil Gotshal & Manges LLP in Boston, is constantly being contacted by recruiters representing partners as well as associates. “I think law firms are being very cautious at this time and waiting to see how 2009 will play out before doing any significant hiring,” Lable said.

                  The layoffs have created a climate of instability at the start of the year in the legal community, and more fallout is expected in the coming weeks and months, according to Paul Clifford, a principal at Boston-based Law Practice Consultants LLC.

                  “There’s a lot of tension in the system right now,” Clifford said.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The End of a Liberal Arts Education

                    No doubt that debts will be excused in this country at some point. How many thousands of unemployable lawyers with $100k+ in debt are there in the U.S. now?

                    Friday, February 6, 2009 | Modified: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 6:00am
                    Layoffs mount at area law firms
                    Boston Business Journal - by Lisa van der Pool

                    “There are very, very few jobs,” said Brion Bickerton, a partner at the legal staffing firm Major, Lindsey & Africa in Boston. “These people are going to really struggle, and some of them won’t find anything full time for a year-plus. There’s really no place to go.”

                    Law firms that have cut attorneys in recent weeks include Foley Hoag LLP, Choate Hall & Stewart, Fish & Richardson PC, McDermott Will & Emery and Cooley Godward Kronish LLP. But even more firms are thought to have held “stealth” layoffs by cutting associates through poor performance reviews to avoid publicly disclosing the layoffs, according to legal watchers.

                    Judy St. John, a legal recruiter from Boston-based Hoffman Recruiters LLC, has been contacted by laid-off first-year associates who had only been with their law firms for five months, as well as by midlevel associates. She’s also received calls from associates who’ve been cut from firms through so-called bad-performance reviews. St. John said job requests in the legal division of Hoffman Recruiters have gone up 25 percent in recent weeks.

                    [..]

                    “It’s very somber right now,” St. John said. “The only movement really is partners who are taking a long, hard look at their situations. We’ve had many partners call and generally they will say, ‘I’m happy, but it’s time to explore.’ ”

                    Indeed, Stephen Lable, manager of legal recruiting and client relations at Weil Gotshal & Manges LLP in Boston, is constantly being contacted by recruiters representing partners as well as associates. “I think law firms are being very cautious at this time and waiting to see how 2009 will play out before doing any significant hiring,” Lable said.

                    The layoffs have created a climate of instability at the start of the year in the legal community, and more fallout is expected in the coming weeks and months, according to Paul Clifford, a principal at Boston-based Law Practice Consultants LLC.

                    “There’s a lot of tension in the system right now,” Clifford said.

                    ******

                    Friday, February 13, 2009, 12:13pm EST | Modified: Saturday, February 14, 2009, 6:00am
                    Lawyers recount 'Black Thursday'
                    Boston Business Journal - by Lisa van der Pool

                    The legal community dubbed yesterday’s wave of attorney layoffs as ‘Black Thursday,’ as 700 lawyers and legal staff across the U.S. lost their jobs in a single day.

                    Comment

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