Knowing what to do

[olivegreen]

You know, I'm being philosophical and cranky tonight.

I'm no "economic" expert, nor have I any great sense of money... Up until about 96 I figured I could direct my retirement savings myself but then I started feeling like an "average" person who would need a bloody degree to understand all the ins and outs of retirement planning so I picked Investors Group. In the 10 years I was with them, I made no money whatsoever on my investments to speak of. In fact I had done much better on my own. For some reason I had a knack for picking the right things...

When my husband's father died and left a little money we paid off all our debts and have put most everything else into a GIC. I think, this was the right decision, but the thing that makes me crazy is that I had to fight my Investor's Group guy who said I would be better off investing it than paying off debt.

I think what I'm saying is that I resent the fact that as an "average" person I had to fight to do what instinctively to me seemed like a logical thing to do with someone who is a so-called expert. Everybody I know is losing money in their RRSPs but they are being told "the investing for the long term" stuff. I feel worried that we've done the right thing. Tell me we did the right thing because all this stuff scares the living daylights out of me...

In the end, [since the husband worked for bank of america for 10 years (clerical), he was laid off last January], its' all worked out in terms of not having major monthly payments while he's scrounging about looking for work... I guess what I'm "ranting and raving" about is that how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

[Spartacus]

Re: Knowing what to do

how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

better question:

how are average people supposed to know what to do if they DO come to forums like this?

hint: past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Eric could be 10^99 % wrong over the next couple of years. Not saying he will be, just that he COULD be.

YMMV,
Caveat emptor,
Caveat lector.

[metalman]

Re: Knowing what to do

You know, I'm being philosophical and cranky tonight.

I'm no "economic" expert, nor have I any great sense of money... Up until about 96 I figured I could direct my retirement savings myself but then I started feeling like an "average" person who would need a bloody degree to understand all the ins and outs of retirement planning so I picked Investors Group. In the 10 years I was with them, I made no money whatsoever on my investments to speak of. In fact I had done much better on my own. For some reason I had a knack for picking the right things...

When my husband's father died and left a little money we paid off all our debts and have put most everything else into a GIC. I think, this was the right decision, but the thing that makes me crazy is that I had to fight my Investor's Group guy who said I would be better off investing it than paying off debt.

I think what I'm saying is that I resent the fact that as an "average" person I had to fight to do what instinctively to me seemed like a logical thing to do with someone who is a so-called expert. Everybody I know is losing money in their RRSPs but they are being told "the investing for the long term" stuff. I feel worried that we've done the right thing. Tell me we did the right thing because all this stuff scares the living daylights out of me...

In the end, [since the husband worked for bank of america for 10 years (clerical), he was laid off last January], its' all worked out in terms of not having major monthly payments while he's scrounging about looking for work... I guess what I'm "ranting and raving" about is that how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

guess they're kinda screwed, aren't they?

"Even men who were engaged in organizing debt-serf cultivation and debt-serf industrialism in the American cotton districts, in the old rubber plantations, and in the factories of India, China, and South Italy, appeared as generous supporters of and subscribers to the sacred cause of individual liberty."
- H. G. Wells, The Shape of Things to Come - (1936)

Never before have so many Americans gone so deeply into debt so willingly. Housing prices have swollen to the point that we've taken to calling a mortgage–by far the largest debt most of us will ever incur–an "investment." Sure, the thinking goes, $100,000 borrowed today will cost more than $200,000 to pay back over the next thirty years, but land, which they are not making any more of, will appreciate even faster. In the odd logic of the real estate bubble, debt has come to equal wealth.

And not only wealth but freedom–an even stranger paradox. After all, debt throughout most of history has been little more than a slight variation on slavery. Debtors were medieval peons or Indians bonded to Spanish plantations or the sharecropping children of slaves in the postbellum South. Few Americans today would volunteer for such an arrangement, and therefore would-be lords and barons have been forced to develop more sophisticated enticements.

- Michael Hudson, The New Road to Serfdom

basic stuff that 90% of the usa population either doesn't know or doesn't believe because the fire econ wants to milk them for economic rent. :mad:

[krakknisse]

Re: Knowing what to do

I guess what I'm "ranting and raving" about is that how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

1. Read, read, read. You can't go wrong with The Economist as a starter. Every intelligent 15-year old should follow that, or a similar _analysis_ magazine, for a few years. It is basic education. Newsweek is a tabloid. Then, read more: books on investing, the economy, and economic history. Narrowmindedness on the timeline is a death trap: the world is more than one generation old. Important stuff happened in the past.
2. Ask: cui bono. If you do some kind of deal - any deal - do the math for your counterparty. Where does the counterparty make his money? If your counterparty seems to get a raw deal, then you're probably being screwed: there are hidden fees and risks that compensate him. In a sentence: if it sounds to good to be true, then it is to good to be true.
3. Be skeptical of the government and the elite. It's more an article of faith or life philosophy. But don't count on the government to save you. You are a tax serf - where are your bargaining chips vis a vis the government? Capital rules the day and is mobile, income is the suckers route being much less mobile.

There are probably multiple routes to ITulip and similar investment philosophies. But the various members routes do have some basic threads in common - and I think some of them are summed up there.

[Supercilious]

Re: Knowing what to do

I guess what I'm "ranting and raving" about is that how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

In the current system, the average person (if you understand by that a person with very little knowledge about investing) is a victim. I beleive the best analogy to that is an amish going into a casino.

What drives me crazy are the so-called expert investment advisors who are conning average persons into wasting retirement or life savings. I believe that most investment advisors an average person has access to are self repressed, but sedated Crammers

There is only one investment advice that I freely give to anybody who wants to listen: "Know your limits!" Therefore I guess that for you, a GIC may be the best option.

But I believe you are right: the system is fundamentally flawed because every 'average person' has to make investment decisions with respect to his/hers retirement savings, being practically forced to enter a game he/she does not understand.

I hope you understand if the bank goes bust, you get only the FDIC or CDIC eligible amount.

CDO's were basically a more sophisticated form of GIC and they were considered at the time to have a very well defined risk. Now, everybody knows that CDO stands for Credit Default Obligation ....;)

[phirang]

Re: Knowing what to do

In the current system, the average person (if you understand by that a person with very little knowledge about investing) is a victim. I beleive the best analogy to that is an amish going into a casino.

What drives me crazy are the so-called expert investment advisors who are conning average persons into wasting retirement or life savings. I believe that most investment advisors an average person has access to are self repressed, but sedated Crammers

There is only one investment advice that I freely give to anybody who wants to listen: "Know your limits!" Therefore I guess that for you, a GIC may be the best option.

But I believe you are right: the system is fundamentally flawed because every 'average person' has to make investment decisions with respect to his/hers retirement savings, being practically forced to enter a game he/she does not understand.

I hope you understand if the bank goes bust, you get only the FDIC or CDIC eligible amount.

CDO's were basically a more sophisticated form of GIC and they were considered at the time to have a very well defined risk. Now, everybody knows that CDO stands for Credit Default Obligation ....;)

Market will remain volatile so long as foregin policy prevails over economic reason.

[Sapiens]

Re: Knowing what to do

I guess what I'm "ranting and raving" about is that how are average people supposed to know what to do if they don't come to forums like this, when their so-called experts really don't work in their best interests or from any position of insight? Rant over...

Olivegreen

Suck it up and drive on.

Now that you are awake, learn to take your share.

You are not your brother’s keeper, notwithstanding all the religious drivel you have been programmed with.

Simple rule from Nature, you must make a profit (surplus).

Bonus point, learn to appropriate others’ surplus to your benefit.

It is as simple as that.

-Sapiens

P.S. There will be a point where you can see you can easily own everything, recognize this also as the path to your own destruction.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Knowing what to do

Suck it up and drive on.

Now that you are awake, learn to take your share.

You are not your brother’s keeper, notwithstanding all the religious drivel you have been programmed with.

Simple rule from Nature, you must make a profit (surplus).

Bonus point, learn to appropriate others’ surplus to your benefit.

It is as simple as that.

-Sapiens

P.S. There will be a point where you can see you can easily own everything, recognize this also as the path to your own destruction.

I seldom read anything on iTulip that tends to piss me off, but I take your comments to suggest that you, being one of the truly greater unknowns here, are an arrogant piece of work. (readers, please hold your applause for my extreme civility).

Despite whatever one sees wrong with theistic religions--I guess the type to which most Americans are exposed--in my opinion it is not all drivel at least with regard to some teachings of morality, e.g. thou shall not steal, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

There is no goddammed rule of Nature that one must make a profit--that is Wall Street and bankers freakin greed, and there is nothing that makes greed a commendable character trait. And your "Bonus point" sounds more like a veteran politician's advice to a new one one who just "joined the club," or perhaps it is just a "banker's dictum." I surmise you are a banker of some sort, a teller, clerk, janitor, guard?

There is nothing simple about investing; were it simple we'd all be infinitely wealthy, and that would include you (and I take it as fact that anyone infinitely wealthy would not be hanging around iTulip very much), and that will never happen.

Perhaps there is some sort of sage advice in your P.S., but it seems improbable that anyone with half a brain will ever see, or even imagine, that he/she can "own everything."

If your are so "knowing," Sapiens, why don't your offer olivegreen and any others some actionable wisdom?

My thought about olivegreen's dilemma is that she is on the right track with gaining recognition that most lay investors are in a world of shit if their circumstance or interests (lack of it in learning about investing) dictate that they must rely on advice from people who make money from her buying whatever investments they recommend. If one needs advice, buy the advice, and assess it as well as one is capable. Over time with continued experience she may learn to separate the BS from what may be worthwhile.

[Sapiens]

Re: Knowing what to do

It is what it is Jim.

[olivegreen]

Re: Knowing what to do

This was all very sage advice. I have learned everything. i have learned nothing. It was the best of times... It was... Anyway, just to say I did learn not to trust anyone but myself and make sure that the self I trust is well-educated. I've got "The Wealth of Nations" to start myself off. But if I would trust anyone, Hudson sure does make alot of sense...

I'm not sure what's going on here with you Sapiens. Sapiens, you're just trying to tell it like it is I suspect and I understand the lesson, as black and white as it is, but I'm going to agree with Jim here because I don't need to own the world even if I could figure out how to. If I owned the world I'd be paranoid all the time wondering what to do with it and how to keep it. What the hell would you do with the world if you owned it? (Maybe I don't know who I'm talking to and maybe you do own a large part of the world...) All I want is a roof over my head, enough to eat, friends, family and a place to paint and write. I need very little else. Well... maybe guns, gold and gumshoes...

Now don't ever call me religious Sapiens. I'm an atheist. The world is what it is and thats all that it is but we can at least be kind to each other if nothing else. At the end of the day its all we have, don't you think? Maybe I shouldn't ask that.

Thank you all. I'll wander off and go read some more. I can't believe I have to learn all this stuff but it appears I do... I'm not sure how well I'll digest it because I'm artistically inclined but nothing ventured, nothing gained...

OG

[c1ue]

Re: Knowing what to do

Well, think of it this way:

Why do the politicians tend to rise to the top of corporations? And in government?

It is because they spend all their energy figuring out how to beat out the other guy: whether it is taking credit, avoiding blame, trading favors, or what not. The guys who spend all their time trying to 'do their jobs' or 'do the right thing' are generally cold meat.

Now extend this model to money. And money can buy power - especially the power to make more money.

If you don't grab it all and use it, then someone else will.

That's why it is amazing Buffet isn't a paranoid freakazoid.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Knowing what to do

Well, think of it this way:

Why do the politicians tend to rise to the top of corporations? And in government?

It is because they spend all their energy figuring out how to beat out the other guy: whether it is taking credit, avoiding blame, trading favors, or what not. The guys who spend all their time trying to 'do their jobs' or 'do the right thing' are generally cold meat.

Now extend this model to money. And money can buy power - especially the power to make more money.

If you don't grab it all and use it, then someone else will.

That's why it is amazing Buffet isn't a paranoid freakazoid.

Is there some hint in your and Sap's messages as to why you are so anonymous? The hint to me is if I knew who either of you were, I am rather sure I wouldn't do any business with either of you.

[c1ue]

Re: Knowing what to do

Jim,

I don't employ these practices as a personal choice.

However, I equally am not a power broker in any company.

I did see the path before me and the tactics used to get on and remain on that path, but simply refused to become that type of person.

However, I did come away with a very up close and personal understanding of executive behavior.

What I outlined previously is exactly what I saw in every instance in the multiple market leading firms I worked in with the following exception:

Original leadership that founded the firm still in place

This is assuming the original leaders aren't ALSO that type of person. Unfortunately in the range of human ability, there are those who both can play the political game and also are brilliant technical types.

As for anonymity - you are safely retired.

I am not.

I don't need the government nor potential predators/competitors to know who I am.

I'm not trying very hard to hide, but neither am I laying myself out.

[Rajiv]

Re: Knowing what to do

Given the entirety of Sapiens' posts, I could perhaps say the same for him -- except that I think he maybe went a bit further down the path than you did, and hence perhaps saw more!

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Knowing what to do

Well, think of it this way:

Why do the politicians tend to rise to the top of corporations? And in government?

It is because they spend all their energy figuring out how to beat out the other guy: whether it is taking credit, avoiding blame, trading favors, or what not. The guys who spend all their time trying to 'do their jobs' or 'do the right thing' are generally cold meat.

Now extend this model to money. And money can buy power - especially the power to make more money.

If you don't grab it all and use it, then someone else will.

That's why it is amazing Buffet isn't a paranoid freakazoid.

Your post came across to me as reflecting your personal attitudes as did Sap.'s, which still strikes me as the case with him.