The truth about 911

[Rajiv]

Re: The truth about 911

Have you read these books and understood them and critically looked at these, or are you just accepting them because they are voluminous and have been produced by NIST, are or you just posting the links? Are you assuming that Government is always truthful and does not obfuscate?

You have the financial might of a large Government funded media campaign vs a much smaller effort of independent researchers


I just posted some stuff for you --

And the published papers and the presentations themselves are interesting.

[metalman]

Re: The truth about 911

Ok there are the reports:

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTA...ic_comment.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTA...ic_comment.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTA...ic_comment.pdf

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTA...ic_comment.pdf

Can you point me to some serious scientific analysis made by the truthers?

oh, geez, guys, we got some serious shit going down. do we really have time for this crap? for example...

Georgia must join NATO: Shevardnadze

TBILISI (Reuters) - Russia's military campaign in Georgia has bolstered Georgians' determination to join NATO, Eduard Shevardnadze, the man who helped end the Cold War and reconcile Moscow with the West, said on Thursday.

"Georgia has no other choice ... People have understood that if it is Georgia today (attacked by Russian forces) then tomorrow it could be Poland or the Czech Republic," Shevardnadze told Reuters in an interview at his hillside villa near Tbilisi.

"Georgia was a Russian colony for more than 200 years ... But this is the 21st century, the time for colonies is over. Georgia now has the strong support of the outside world."

Shevardnadze, now 80, is best known for his role as Soviet foreign minister under Mikhail Gorbachev in fostering reforms that led to the end of communism in eastern Europe, the reunification of Germany and the demise of the Soviet Union.

He then ruled his native Georgia for a decade until his overthrow in the "rose revolution" of the youthful, pro-Western Mikheil Saakashvili in 2003.

[Supercilious]

Re: The truth about 911

Also The AE911Truth PowerPoint multimedia slide presentation

Also a video presentation by Richard Gage Below the slide presentation

So who is Richard Gage?

http://911guide.googlepages.com/ae911truth

[metalman]

Re: The truth about 911

So who is Richard Gage?

http://911guide.googlepages.com/ae911truth

right. professional architects can be whackos. professional astronauts can be whackos. lawyers, doctors, rich guys... once perfectly sane and reasonable people can SNAP and turn into whackos. hell, presidents can be whackos.

[Rajiv]

Re: The truth about 911

For all I know you could be a whacko, I could be a whacko, and everybody who posts on this site could be a whacko -- particularly those who do not give their real names. I am sure I could find something derogatory to say about anybody on this planet without too much effort!

Also a reading of Disciplined Minds can be useful to understand how "Professionals" act and why most are not independent thinkers in today's corporate society.

[Supercilious]

Re: The truth about 911

oh, geez, guys, we got some serious shit going down. do we really have time for this crap? for example...

[url="http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSLL23844120080821"]

Georgia must join NATO: Shevardnadze

Metalman this is already been done in the news forum where I have quite a few arguments with Anissa Naouai form Russia Today (aka c1ue in drag when he is not drinking with his MVD buddies), therefore the dispute truthers vs skeptics can continue with its inefable absurd.

Anyway, I just can wait to see some rigurous dynamic thermo-structural fem modelling done by the truthers

[metalman]

Re: The truth about 911

For all I know you could be a whacko, I could be a whacko, and everybody who posts on this site could be a whacko -- particularly those who do not give their real names. I am sure I could find something derogatory to say about anybody on this planet without too much effort!

sure hope you didn't think i was implying you're a whacko. i'm getting at the tendency to pull out a guy's cv and say, look! he's got a phd and went to yale. he must be sane. maybe he is and maybe he isn't. i can tell you this, every single 911truther i've met in person is a whacko.

[Supercilious]

Re: The truth about 911

For all I know you could be a whacko, I could be a whacko, and everybody who posts on this site could be a whacko -- particularly those who do not give their real names. I am sure I could find something derogatory to say about anybody on this planet without too much effort!

Also a reading of Disciplined Minds can be useful to understand how "Professionals" act and why most are not independent thinkers in today's corporate society.

The people who did the NIST study are wacos too ? All of them?:rolleyes:

[Rajiv]

Re: The truth about 911

I did not think that you were implying that I was a whacko -- I was rather reinforcing your POV --

However most 911 truthers I have met have been senior level people, quite sane and generally sceptical, and unaccepting of propaganda and are generally critical thinkers.

See also the edited version of my post.

[Rajiv]

Re: The truth about 911

The people who did the NIST study are wacos too ? All of them?:rolleyes:

They do belong to the same ilk of people who fabricated the evidence that led the US into the Iraq war -- Governments (and hence government officials) will lie when needed and when told to get certain results.

[Supercilious]

Re: The truth about 911

They do belong to the same ilk of people who fabricated the evidence that led the US into the Iraq war -- Governments (and hence government officials) will lie when needed and when told to get certain results.

Wrong. The CIA specialists warned that there was no evidence to go into Iraq ... remember Valerie Plame ??? It was the administration that acted like truthers.

Plus the NIST report is public. All legitimate scientists in the world who work in the field of structural failure are probably examining it word by word and digit by digit. If it's a fabrication how long do you think it will take until the fraud or bad science is spotted?

[marvenger]

Re: The truth about 911

legitimate scientists are pulling it to pieces. have a look at the stuff rajiv has posted. Scientists from NIST haven't wanted to or haven't been allowed to engage in a public debate with these scientists even though they've been trying for years. What's the point in having a public paper if it's not allowed to be debated?

[Supercilious]

Re: The truth about 911

legitimate scientists are pulling it to pieces. have a look at the stuff rajiv has posted. Scientists from NIST haven't wanted to or haven't been allowed to engage in a public debate with these scientists even though they've been trying for years. What's the point in having a public paper if it's not allowed to be debated?

I want to see the truther scientists publish their studies in rebuttal to NIST conclusion.

And by the way, Mr Gage has no affiliation with any university ... not even the famous University of Manitoba. Those people in the audience were not an academic forum. He just rented an amphitheater an gave a free lecture to have the logo of an university .... typical crackpot methods:

http://911research.wtc7.net/letters/...he_052807.html

Gage is scheduled to address a public audience tomorrow at 1 p.m. with a free lecture in University Centre at the University of Manitoba. At 7 p.m. he'll conduct a seminar at the Fort Garry Hotel.
On Wednesday at 7 p.m., Gage will give a presentation at the Gas Station Theatre on what he calls the mainstream media's "code of silence" about the 9/11 "inside job."
Joe Hawkins, a Winnipeg chiropractor helping arrange the seminars, says no one wants to talk about who's really behind the 9/11 attacks.

The Chiropractor Association from the Faculty of Architecture of the renowned University of Manitoba invited an american scientist ..... you got the point

By the way, at 00:40 the great 911 researcher who inspired Mr Gage ... you know David Ray Griffin is a retired academic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ray_Griffin

David Ray Griffin is a longtime resident of Santa Barbara, California, was a full-time academic from 1973 until April 2004. He is currently a co-director of the Center for Process Studies, and one of the foremost contemporary exponents of process theology, [...]

No wonder they have such a strong faith ...

[marvenger]

Re: The truth about 911

Below i've cut an pasted the first article Rajiv posted so you don't have to click on the link. the author is Dr. Crockett Grabbe.

Some of is other recent publication include

Plasma Applications


Crockett Grabbe (ed.), Plasma Physics Applied (Transworld Research Network, INDIA, 2006).


Space Videos


Crockett Grabbe, The Emerging Dynamic SuperGlobe , Video Program developed as spin-off of public lecture, May, 2002, shown repetitively on over 50 public TV channels in Alaska, Hawaii, 24 continental states, and New Zealand by fall, 2003.
Crockett Grabbe, Earth's Dynamic Neighborhood, Public Lecture, April, 2000, played locally on UITV, PATV, and selected public TV stations in Minnesota, New Mexico, and California.


Plasma Waves and Radiation

C.L. Grabbe and J.D. Menietti, "Broadband Electrostatic Waves Observations in the Auroral Region on Polar and Comparison with Theory," Journal of Geophysical Research, 111, A10226, 2006.

C.L. Grabbe, "Trapped-electron Solitary Wave Structures in a Magnetized Plasma," Physics of Plasmas, 12, 072311, 2005.

C.L. Grabbe, "Solitary Wave Structure in Magnetized Plasmas and the Source Region of BEN," Geophysical Research Letters , 29, 2002.

C. L. Grabbe and J.D. Menietti, "Electrostatic Wave Variety and the Origin of BEN," Planetary and Space Science , 50, 335-341, 2002.

C. L. Grabbe, "Generation of Broadband Electrostatic Waves in the Earth's Magnetotail," Physical Review Letters , 84, 3614-17, 2000.

C. L. Grabbe, "Origins of Broadband Electrostatic Waves in the Magnetotail," invited paper in Recent Research Development in Plasmas, 1, 89-100, 2000.

C. L. Grabbe, "Broadband Electrostatic Waves in the Plasma Sheet for Kappa Particle Distributions," University of Iowa Report, 1999.
C. L. Grabbe, "Cerenkov Radiation Field from an Actively-Injected Electron Beam," University of Iowa Report, 1998.
C. L. Grabbe and E. Venturino, "Asymptotics of the Modified Plasma Dispersion Function Generalized to Real Kappa," Physics of Plasmas, 3, 35-41, 1996.
C. L. Grabbe, "Cerenkov Radiation in Magnetospheric Plasmas," invited paper in Trends in Geophysical Research, 2 , 233-45, 1993.


Earth's Bow Shock and Magnetosheath

C. L. Grabbe and E. Venturino, "MHD Analysis at Earth's Bow Shock for Differing Polytropic Indices Across the Shock Layer," University of Iowa Report, 1998.
C. L. Grabbe, "Low Mach Number Predictions in an Extended Axially Symmetric MHD Theory of the Magnetosheath," Geophysical Research Letters, 24, 2495-8, 1997.
C. L. Grabbe, "The Polytropic Index of the Solar Wind at the Earth's Bow Shock," Journal of Geophysical Research, 101 11,067-73, 1996.
C. L. Grabbe, "MHD Theory of the Earth's Magnetosheath for an Axisymmmetric Model," Geophysical Research Letters, 23, 777-80, 1996.
I. H. Cairns and C. L. Grabbe,"Reply," Geophysical Research Letters, 23, 311-14, 1996.
C. L. Grabbe and I. H. Cairns, "Analytic MHD Theory for Earth's Bow Shock at Low Mach Numbers," Journal of Geophysical Research , 100, 19,941-49, 1995.
I. H. Cairns and C. L. Grabbe, "Towards an MHD Theory for the Standoff Distance of Earth's Bow Shock," Geophysical Research Letters , 21, 2781-84, 1994.


Physics and Philosophy


C.L. Grabbe, "Power in the Emerging Dynamic SuperGlobe", invited essay in Durlabhji (ed.) Power in Focus: Perspectives from Multiple Disciplines (Wyndham Hall Press, Lima, OH, 2004). C. L. Grabbe, invited Critical Review of R. M. Russell, "Whitehead, Einstein and the Newtonian Legacy," [from Newton and New Direction in Science (Specola Vaticana, Italy, 1988)] Process Studies, 23, 285-8, Fall/Winter, 1994.


Plasma Turbulence

G. K. Knorr, H. Mond, and C. L. Grabbe, "Relaxation States of an Ideal MHD Plasma with External Magnetic Field," Journal of Plasma Physics, 53, 373-85, 1995.

Response to NIST on Energy and Momentum

Crockett Grabbe © January 18, 2008

University of Iowa & SeaLane Consulting

www.SeaLane.org

www.physics.uiowa.edu/~cgrabbe

ABSTRACT


NIST, in their latest Answers to FAQs, artfully dodges the important issues on the physics of conservation of energy and momentum in the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. The issues and their implications are addressed.
NIST's Recent Answer to an Avoidance Question


The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) released a new supplement with Answers to Frequently-Asked Questions on December 14. One of those questions dealt for the first time with the issue of energy and momentum conservation, an issue I have addressed in recent articles and a news interview.[1,2,3,4,5] However, here is the question as they formulated it and the answer they provided to it.
Q: Were the basic principles of conservation of momentum and energy satisfied in NIST's analysis of the structural response of the towers to the aircraft impact and the fires?
A: Yes. The basic principles of conservation of momentum and conservation of energy were satisfied in these analyses. In the case of the aircraft impact analyses, which involved a moving aircraft (velocity) and an initially stationary building, the analysis did, indeed, account for conservation of momentum and energy (kinetic energy, strain energy). After each tower had finished oscillating from the aircraft impact, the subsequent degradation of the structure involved only minute (essentially zero) velocities. Thus, a static analysis of the structural response and collapse initiation was appropriate. Since the velocities were zero and since momentum is equal to mass times velocity, the momentum terms also equaled zero and therefore dropped out of the governing equations. The analyses accounted for conservation of energy.
Analysis


The question was formulated in such a way to totally avoid the issues that have been repeatedly raised on the conservation principles.[1,2,3,4,5,6,7] There was never any issue of the energy and momentum the plane impacts had on the towers! Their answer to this avoidance-question in fact points to one of the major problems they ignore.
They stated correctly how the energy and momentum transferred to the towers from the planes was soon dissipated. So the natural followup question is: where did the energy and momentum come from that drove sudden squibs [which I define here as the rapid horizontal movement of material away from the towers] and destruction that started the collapse of the towers? NIST's question and answer show they clearly could not come from the planes, and several analyses of the issues show they could not have been produced by the fires the planes caused.[1,2,6,7,8] NIST's published 43 volumes of material that presume and conclude the planes and their fires started the collapses, but none of these volumes discusses or even mentions the conservation of momentum or the conservation of energy in the collapses.
In the case of the South Tower all of the sizeable energy arose in the few floors below where the plane had crashed on the tower causing it to burn and smoke.[2] (The towers had smoked so heavily because the concrete making up the towers had a large concentration of slag wool in it, making the towers hard to burn).[9] That energy in its kinetic form had appeared rapidly and suddenly on the floors below the plane collision almost an hour after it happened. It was quickly evident with squibs [rapid horizontal jets of material] smashing through the walls of those floors at large momentum, exhibited with that material moving at high velocities (close to 100 mph). The first set of squibs was followed up with a second set of squibs breaking through the walls with large kinetic energy and momentum, and that momentum of the squibs was transferred in large part to angular momentum of the top 34-floor segment of the tower as a whole (almost like twisting a bottlecap), causing it to completely topple in a new direction so it fell eastward. There was tremendous energy and momentum created there when the collapse was initiated, and they did not come from the planes and fires. The only explanation for their creation is conventional explosions inside the building.
In the case of the North Tower the collapse started and occurred rapidly and suddenly in the top segment about 1.5 hours after the plane collision. What provided the sudden source of energy that caused it? Clearly it was not the planes or fires, which would have caused gravitation collapse of the tower. Gravitation could not have provided anywhere near the energy expended in the collapse, as calculations by Hoffman [10] on the energy used show. The amount expended was much greater than what was available gravitationally, and there is overwhelming evidence explosions supplied part of this energy, as squibs kept bursting through the 4 walls 10 floors ahead of the collapse as the towers fell.[1] Huge, up to 4000 square feet, pieces of the wall of several floors blew away from the building. These clearly could not have been produced by the plane collision, since the plane collision had a much smaller impact area, and since it went inward into the buidling while such pieces of the wall blasted outward.
In the case of Building 7, there was no plane that hit it, yet it also fell at almost free-fall speed, hitting the ground in less than 7 seconds. A source or sources of energy and momentum started that collapse and took it down at nearly free-fall speed, and no plane was involved. Where did it come from? Again, conventional explosives are the only answer here as well.
NIST's answer fails to address any of the energy and momentum conservation issues in these 3 building collapses, yet NIST insists planes and their fires brought the towers down. These conservation principles show that did not happen.
REFERENCES


[1] Crockett Grabbe, "Collapse of the North Tower of the World Trade Center," submitted to Journal of 911 Studies, January, 2008. Posted at http://www.SeaLane.org
[2] Crockett Grabbe, "Collapse of the South Tower of the World Trade Center," submitted to Journal of 911 Studies, October, 2007. Posted at http://www.SeaLane.org
[2] Crockett Grabbe, "Direct Evidence for Explosions: Flying Projectiles and Widespread Impact Damage," Journal of 911 Studies, August, 2007. http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/GrabbeExplosionsEvidence.pdf
[4] Crockett Grabbe and Lenny Charles, "Science in the Bush: When Politics Displaces Physics," released online 9/8/07. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18344.htm
[5] INN Interview with Crockett Grabbe on INN World Report, hosted by Lenny Charles, April 23, 2007 (New York). http://www.innworldreport.net/archives/2007/04/index.html
[6] Stephen Jones, "Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?" Journal of 911 Studies, Volume 3, September, 2006, linked from journal index posted at http://www.Journalof911Studies.com
[7] Kenneth Kuttler, "Collapse Time Calculations for WTC 1," Journal of 911 Studies Letter (May 9, 2007), posted at http://www.Journalof911Studies.com/ letters/ProfKuttlerWTC1CollapseTimeCalculations.pdf
[8] Kevin Ryan, "High Velocity Bursts of Debris from Point-Like Sources in the WTC Towers" Journal of 911 Studies, Volume 13, July, 2007, linked from journal index posted at http://www.Journalof911Studies.com
[9] U.S. Department of the Interior at U. S. Geological Survey, "Particle Atlas of World Trade Center Dust," posted 9/23/05 at http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/508OF05-1165.html
[10] Jim Hoffman, "The North Tower's Dust Cloud: Analysis of Energy Requirements for the Expansion of the Dust Cloud Following the Collapse of 1 World Trade Center, October 16, 2003, posted at http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/index.html

[phirang]

Re: The truth about 911

Context, gentlemen, context:

The 1993 World Trade Center bombing occurred on February 26, 1993, when a car bomb was detonated below Tower One of the World Trade Center in New York City. The 1,500 lb (680 kg) urea nitrate-hydrogen gas enhanced device^[1] was intended to knock the North Tower (Tower One) into the South Tower (Tower Two), bringing both towers down and killing thousands of people.^[2][3] It failed to do so, but did kill six people and injured 1,042.
The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. They received financing from Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle. In March 1994, four men were convicted of carrying out the bombing: Abouhalima, Ajaj, Ayyad and Salameh. The charges included conspiracy, explosive destruction of property and interstate transportation of explosives. And in November 1997, two more were convicted: Yousef, the mastermind behind the bombings, and Eyad Ismoil, who drove the truck carrying the bomb.

...

In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, a former Egyptian army officer named Emad Salem. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of hundreds of possible suspects.
Salem, initially believing that this was to be a sting operation, claimed that the FBI's original plan was for Salem to supply the conspirators with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their bomb, but that the FBI chose to use him for other purposes instead.^[11] He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers.^[12]

After reading the Operation Northwood archieves, what happened on 9/11 seemed eerily reminiscent... also, Bush lied about his motivation for Iraq, and so it's quite possible the the deep government(not elected officials, but those really in charge) had an interest in provoking a war.

What I also find curious is the absence of any major "bust" since 9/11, aside from pathetic hatians immigrants attempting to attack an army base or some enraged taxi driver.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Wo...Center_bombing

investment-wise, what would serve the deep-government best? massive inflation? massive deflation? well, deflation is never associated with the need to create a new currency, yet inflation is. if they've an ambition to do so, then inflation is inevitable.

A good exercise: create a conspiracy investing "bot," who allocates his resources according to the principle that he'd second-guess the "illuminati". This would be a very interesting experiment, and defining what benefits the "illuminati" could provide insight.