Must have been a big snowstorm...

[shiny!]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

We are all very relieved to hear she came out of this reasonably well EJ.

Whatever she was driving (Bimmer? Ford?) it was engineered well and did its job of absorbing the energy and sacrificing itself to protect the occupant.

Nevertheless, it's difficult to argue with F=ma :-)

When we moved to the Persian Gulf I rented a BMW sedan on arrival (plentiful and cheaper to rent than a VW New Beetle, go figure). After watching the insane Saudi drivers for a few days I decided Mrs. GRG55 needed the biggest, heaviest, tallest and most reliable vehicle I could rationalize...the order for the Toyota Land Bruiser went in later that week.

It'll be interesting to hear what your wife decides for a permanent replacement after this experience.

Yes indeed. I have a perfectly reliable, fuel-efficient 2012 Hyundai Accent that has never made me feel as safe as my old Crown Vic and Mercury Marquis. I'm seriously considering selling it, buying a good used Crown Vic and pocketing a few thousand $$ in change. Dumb idea?

[bigred]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

I guess I should reconsider the safety of my mini countryman...... Bend OR

[shiny!]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

Safety ratings at Insurance Institute for Highway Safety

Death rate statistics compared by vehicle over the years:
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/sr/statusreport/article/50/1/1

According to that article, Crown Vics are among the best, Hyundai Accents thru 2011 among the worst. The 2012 Accent made a lot of safety improvements, but I doubt it comes close to a big vehicle in a collision with a big vehicle. With my luck, if I do trade switch to a CV, gasoline prices will shoot up the next day and stay there!

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

After watching the insane Saudi drivers for a few days I decided Mrs. GRG55 needed the biggest, heaviest, tallest and most reliable vehicle I could rationalize...the order for the Toyota Land Bruiser went in later that week.

It'll be interesting to hear what your wife decides for a permanent replacement after this experience.

GRG, where are the drivers more insane, Egypt or Saudi Arabia?

In Egypt, our guide explained that nearly all the roads had to be divided by concrete barriers, otherwise there were so many
head on collisions due to cars passing and ignoring the oncoming traffic.

I used to ride a bicycle in the Boston area, and dreaded the roundabouts--worst thing for bicycles I have every experienced.

[EJ]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

We are all very relieved to hear she came out of this reasonably well EJ.

Whatever she was driving (Bimmer? Ford?) it was engineered well and did its job of absorbing the energy and sacrificing itself to protect the occupant.

Nevertheless, it's difficult to argue with F=ma :-)

When we moved to the Persian Gulf I rented a BMW sedan on arrival (plentiful and cheaper to rent than a VW New Beetle, go figure). After watching the insane Saudi drivers for a few days I decided Mrs. GRG55 needed the biggest, heaviest, tallest and most reliable vehicle I could rationalize...the order for the Toyota Land Bruiser went in later that week.

It'll be interesting to hear what your wife decides for a permanent replacement after this experience.

Thanks. Perhaps something along this line. This way if she's driving and I'm riding shotgun and see a threat approaching I can take appropriate action to neutralize the threat.

Seriously, a 5 series BMW diesel SUV is on the top of the list.

[shiny!]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

Thanks. Perhaps something along this line. This way if she's driving and I'm riding shotgun and see a threat approaching I can take appropriate action to neutralize the threat.

If that was mine, I'd be calling shotgun! Want one. Now.

[GRG55]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

GRG, where are the drivers more insane, Egypt or Saudi Arabia?

In Egypt, our guide explained that nearly all the roads had to be divided by concrete barriers, otherwise there were so many
head on collisions due to cars passing and ignoring the oncoming traffic.

I used to ride a bicycle in the Boston area, and dreaded the roundabouts--worst thing for bicycles I have every experienced.

Vehicle & highway accident statistics are elevated in virtually all developing countries compared to what we are used to in the USA, Canada and western Europe.

Having said that, in the congested cities of the developing world, such as Cairo and New Delhi, fatalities (referring to vehicle occupants, not pedestrians) are rare because the speeds are so slow. And although the traffic appears chaotic with everyone honking horns and appearing to jostle for position, there is in these cities a pretty clear, unwritten code of driver conduct and mutual respect that allows traffic to keep moving...often better than downtown rush hour in North America. If you have occasion to go to a place like Cairo take a local taxi and watch the proceedings carefully; you will soon see what I am referring to above.

The horrific accidents are on the highways. A combination of poorer roads (engineering, construction, signage, lighting, maintenance), poorer vehicles (that lack the engineering, manufacturing quality and safety technologies we take for granted), limited enforcement of traffic regulations (in many countries the police make most of their income from stopping cars and imposing arbitrary fines) and a generally unskilled driver population conspires to create a pretty hazardous circumstance.

As to your original query, Saudi drivers by far. No comparison. Even though roads and vehicles in the Arab Gulf region are on average far superior to most of the rest of the developing world, there is lax enforcement of traffic laws and great numbers of Saudi drivers have no fundamental concept of vehicle dynamics - I think that comes from an education system with a core curriculum of religious studies and adherence to the faith, over basic science or high school physics. Too many of them actually don't understand why there is a limit to the speed that their vehicle can corner, and when it goes off the road (or in to the opposing lane on a curve) at some outrageous speed, large numbers of them (if they survive the experience) actually believe it was all Allah's doing. One of the more hilarious things was watching locals travelling at high speed (80+ mph not unusual) enter a fog bank and, without slowing down one bit, turning on their four-way flashers in the expectation that might somehow make a difference in the outcome. I have to admit...a lot of them seem to have a much stronger faith in their God protecting them than most Christians I know

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

If that was mine, I'd be calling shotgun! Want one. Now.

I think drivers of more massive cars (more dangerous to others) should pay a higher vehicle tax, ear marked for
treatment of those injured by heavier cars. It's a Gresham's dynamic of the worst kind,
with more wealthy people binging on personal safety at the expense of others. Alternatively, the more massive cars could be required to include some extra cushy bumpers, to protect what they bump into.

[Polish_Silver]

Faith vs risk taking

Vehicle & highway accident statistics are elevated in virtually all developing countries compared to what we are used to in the USA, Canada and western Europe.

. . . .

As to your original query, Saudi drivers by far. No comparison. Even though roads and vehicles in the Arab Gulf region are on average far superior to most of the rest of the developing world, there is lax enforcement of traffic laws and great numbers of Saudi drivers have no fundamental concept of vehicle dynamics - I think that comes from an education system with a core curriculum of religious studies and adherence to the faith, over basic science or high school physics. Too many of them actually don't understand why there is a limit to the speed that their vehicle can corner, and when it goes off the road (or in to the opposing lane on a curve) at some outrageous speed, large numbers of them (if they survive the experience) actually believe it was all Allah's doing. One of the more hilarious things was watching locals travelling at high speed (80+ mph not unusual) enter a fog bank and, without slowing down one bit, turning on their four-way flashers in the expectation that might somehow make a difference in the outcome. I have to admit...a lot of them seem to have a much stronger faith in their God protecting them than most Christians I know

Fascinating. I have heard Christians say that God would protect them from infectious disease when taking communion from a common cup, but that's about the limit. Going back to Crusader times, and before Pasteur, I suspect the risk attitude would be more equal between Christians and Muslims. The whole question of magical belief is fascinating, and extends well into behavioral economics.

[jk]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

hazardous circumstance.

As to your original query, Saudi drivers by far. No comparison. Even though roads and vehicles in the Arab Gulf region are on average far superior to most of the rest of the developing world, there is lax enforcement of traffic laws and great numbers of Saudi drivers have no fundamental concept of vehicle dynamics - I think that comes from an education system with a core curriculum of religious studies and adherence to the faith, over basic science or high school physics. Too many of them actually don't understand why there is a limit to the speed that their vehicle can corner, and when it goes off the road (or in to the opposing lane on a curve) at some outrageous speed, large numbers of them (if they survive the experience) actually believe it was all Allah's doing. One of the more hilarious things was watching locals travelling at high speed (80+ mph not unusual) enter a fog bank and, without slowing down one bit, turning on their four-way flashers in the expectation that might somehow make a difference in the outcome. I have to admit...a lot of them seem to have a much stronger faith in their God protecting them than most Christians I know

i think you give too much credit to westerners' knowledge of physics as a source of their behavior. at least in the u.s., trust me, if you ask a random person what f=ma means, i'll give you long odds that they don't know.

otoh, what little i know about the middle east and the muslim faith leads me to think that most people have a fatalistic view of what happens. what happens is pre-ordained, so why worry about a fog bank?

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

Thanks. Perhaps something along this line. This way if she's driving and I'm riding shotgun and see a threat approaching I can take appropriate action to neutralize the threat.

Seriously, a 5 series BMW diesel SUV is on the top of the list.

I missed this thread, my apologies about the accident with your wife EJ.

My friend has the 5 series BMW diesel and loves it. It really is a tank and with all the safety features and wide wheel base to boot.

[lektrode]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

Thanks. Perhaps something along this line. This way if she's driving and I'm riding shotgun and see a threat approaching I can take appropriate action to neutralize the threat. ...Seriously, a 5 series BMW diesel SUV is on the top of the list.

altho... methinks its perty tuff to beat one of these (esp out there on MA roads in a snowstorm ;)



well... cept fer GRG's offering, a'course:

I've emailed Ottawa and told them its time to cross the frozen St Lawrence and invade New England so Canada can reclaim our lost British heritage lands. You winter wusses down there, huddled around the wood stove, wouldn't stand a chance against our state of the art military hardware... ....

uhhh....
wanna bet?



and from what i heah, she's been perty chilly over theyah lately... (warning: 'colorful' wx forecast/commentary, may not be suitable for all audiences ... and dont say i didnt warn ya)



ayuh... only thing i'm wondren about now ?

does metalman know this guy - or what?

[santafe2]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

And although the traffic appears chaotic with everyone honking horns and appearing to jostle for position, there is in these cities a pretty clear, unwritten code of driver conduct and mutual respect that allows traffic to keep moving...often better than downtown rush hour in North America.

First let me add my condolences to your wife EJ, I hope she is mending well. Keep us updated. While I am fine driving around in little sports cars or my electric car, (my wife keeps me well insured), my wife and daughters have always driven beast-mobiles. Suburbans, Land (B)rusers, etc. Both my daughters know the family rule, the cars are branded Smart, the people in them are happy idiots.

To GRG's point, we like to vacation in the Yucatan in late winter or early spring because, as he noted, we're winter wimps in the US and start whining a lot around March 1st. I remember the first time we landed in Cancun and rented a car to head south to Playa del Carmen the Hertz agent warned us to "never drive in the middle lane". If you've ever driven the highway south of Cancun you know it's two lanes wide. As we continued south I asked my wife more than once what the hell the agent meant by the middle lane? At one point the traffic began to congest and the drivers turned a two lane road into a three lane road. Unless you were well schooled in local custom and comfortable driving a foot or so from the cars next to you, "never drive in the middle lane".

It reminded me of all our years living in Los Angeles. If you drive in the fast lane when the freeways are moving, you drive 85-90 miles an hour, two car lengths behind the car in front of you. If you've never lived there it sounds crazy but it works. You don't even look at the car in front of you, you're looking several cars ahead. If you pull back to a sensible distance, other cars just pull in to close the gap. When traffic is congested and moving 5-10 mph, motorcycle riders are moving at 25-30 mph between the fast lane and the 2nd lane and they have the right of way.

I just reminded myself of one more LA anecdote. One of my business partners grew up in Boston and thought he understood bad traffic. He'd never been to LA. One day, we had a heated discussion over my scheduling only one client meeting in the morning in Ontario and a vendor meeting in that evening in Santa Barbara. Our dinner was scheduled at 7:30, 2 hours away in a perfect world. As we were finishing lunch at 1:30, I looked at him and said, we have to leave now or we'll never make it. If you've never made that drive during a weekday, you can't possibly understand the personal hell that is LA traffic. At first we were OK, but we got to Pasadena an hour later traffic really ground to a halt. By the time we got to the 405 he looked at me and said "these dumb F****** don't do this every day!". All I could do was laugh and say, yes they do. This is how Angelenos live. They live and die by their commute.

I can't speak for LA today as we haven't lived there for almost 20 years, but I suspect it hasn't changed a lot.

[EJ]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

First let me add my condolences to your wife EJ, I hope she is mending well. Keep us updated. While I am fine driving around in little sports cars or my electric car, (my wife keeps me well insured), my wife and daughters have always driven beast-mobiles. Suburbans, Land (B)rusers, etc. Both my daughters know the family rule, the cars are branded Smart, the people in them are happy idiots.

To GRG's point, we like to vacation in the Yucatan in late winter or early spring because, as he noted, we're winter wimps in the US and start whining a lot around March 1st. I remember the first time we landed in Cancun and rented a car to head south to Playa del Carmen the Hertz agent warned us to "never drive in the middle lane". If you've ever driven the highway south of Cancun you know it's two lanes wide. As we continued south I asked my wife more than once what the hell the agent meant by the middle lane? At one point the traffic began to congest and the drivers turned a two lane road into a three lane road. Unless you were well schooled in local custom and comfortable driving a foot or so from the cars next to you, "never drive in the middle lane".

It reminded me of all our years living in Los Angeles. If you drive in the fast lane when the freeways are moving, you drive 85-90 miles an hour, two car lengths behind the car in front of you. If you've never lived there it sounds crazy but it works. You don't even look at the car in front of you, you're looking several cars ahead. If you pull back to a sensible distance, other cars just pull in to close the gap. When traffic is congested and moving 5-10 mph, motorcycle riders are moving at 25-30 mph between the fast lane and the 2nd lane and they have the right of way.

I just reminded myself of one more LA anecdote. One of my business partners grew up in Boston and thought he understood bad traffic. He'd never been to LA. One day, we had a heated discussion over my scheduling only one client meeting in the morning in Ontario and a vendor meeting in that evening in Santa Barbara. Our dinner was scheduled at 7:30, 2 hours away in a perfect world. As we were finishing lunch at 1:30, I looked at him and said, we have to leave now or we'll never make it. If you've never made that drive during a weekday, you can't possibly understand the personal hell that is LA traffic. At first we were OK, but we got to Pasadena an hour later traffic really ground to a halt. By the time we got to the 405 he looked at me and said "these dumb F****** don't do this every day!". All I could do was laugh and say, yes they do. This is how Angelenos live. They live and die by their commute.

I can't speak for LA today as we haven't lived there for almost 20 years, but I suspect it hasn't changed a lot.

In an earlier life I ran Western Region Sales for a company based in Boston that went public. I spent more time on LA freeways than I want to recall. At the time I figured the psychology of it from the standpoint of my fellow drivers who lived there was penance for the weather as in "I sacrifice these days of my life in traffic for the good fortune to never shovel snow to get out of my driveway and shall bond with the other several thousand drivers around me who are making the same deal, although I shall honk at the more idiot among them on occasion."

I have a friend who recently moved from Wisconsin to California. In every respect the decision was sound, dust and rats and crazy neighbors aside.

The fact is there is no perfect place to live. This is a myth. There is only the perfect place for each of us to live at a particular time in our lives, suited to our personality and history.

I am grateful that wherever I live physically in this world I will always live virtually with all of my iTulip friends here in this place we have created.

Thank you all for your kind thoughts for my wife. She is doing much better.

[GRG55]

Re: Must have been a big snowstorm...

In an earlier life I ran Western Region Sales for a company based in Boston that went public. I spent more time on LA freeways than I want to recall. At the time I figured the psychology of it from the standpoint of my fellow drivers who lived there was penance for the weather as in "I sacrifice these days of my life in traffic for the good fortune to never shovel snow to get out of my driveway and shall bond with the other several thousand drivers around me who are making the same deal, although I shall honk at the more idiot among them on occasion."

I have a friend who recently moved from Wisconsin to California. In every respect the decision was sound, dust and rats and crazy neighbors aside.

The fact is there is no perfect place to live. This is a myth. There is only the perfect place for each of us to live at a particular time in our lives, suited to our personality and history.

I am grateful that wherever I live physically in this world I will always live virtually with all of my iTulip friends here in this place we have created.

Thank you all for your kind thoughts for my wife. She is doing much better.

That sentence reminded me of a column many, many years ago by long time Cycle World and Road & Track contributor Peter Egan. After toiling most of his career to that point in the Newport Beach, CA, offices of both magazines he wrote an eloquent explanation of why he was bailing out of the Land of Milk and Honey to move to Wisconsin. As I recall he included "4 real seasons", country roads on which to drive his ever changing collection of aging British roadsters and motorcycles, and it was still possible to find a guy named "Slim" down at the local airport to fix your ragwing Piper Cub.