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"Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

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  • "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

    The story is basically this: the US and Europe, two economies worth 15 trillion Dollars of GDP a year, leverage themselves up to nearly 400% of their yearly income (private and public debt combined). Normally you'd think that borrowing on that kind of scale would create a major drain on savings, such that interest rates at which borrowing can occur show a rising trend. But this is NOT what happened. Interest rates showed a falling trend WHILE all this borrowing was going on. Apparently somewhere in the world, so many savings were being generated that the savings for this nearly 120 trillion Dollars worth of debt were not just matched, but EXCEEDED.

    Where in the WORLD were these savings coming from? China? Don't make me laugh. It was worth barely 5 trillion Dollars at the height of the leverage bubble. It would need to generate 24 times it's GDP in savings to come close to meeting the savings demand, let alone exceeding it. Of course much of the savings came from with the US and Europe themselves, but this was not something that happened for any identifyable ex-ante reason. Not to the point of creating 400% of GDP in savings.

    People who analyze debt from a mainstream framework of ideas tend to see "savings" as an unambiguously good thing, to the point of countering any criticism of excess indebtedness with the mantra that savings are being generated on an equally large scale. What they don't realize is that savings are a good thing only when the alternative is having NOTHING. In reality, as a result of vendor financing and endogenous money dynamics, savings are accepted for the provision of goods as a substitute FOR AN IMMEDIATE PAYMENT. This is what has been going on. When savings are themselves the generator of demand where immediately settled payments would have been the alternative, they are a NEGATIVE thing.

    Let me put that in a diagram. It works basically like a scale from immediately settled payments, through savings/debts to having no payment at all:

    IMMEDIATE PAYMENT (best)
    IOU ACCEPTED FOR GOODS EXCHANGE (ok, at least you have something; but lets not let these IOUs pile up to much lest we don't get paid; these savings are good TO THE EXTENT there is a realistic plan for them to be paid down by the counterparty)
    NO PAYMENT AT ALL (worst)

    Going from line three to line two is a good thing. This is what mainstream economists understand.
    Going from line one to line two is a bad thing. This is what mainstream economists miss (bewilderingly).

    The alternative, then, to the savings glut theory is that the savings were to a large extent generated within the US and Europe's own borders, but this is not a reason to think all is OK. The savings are deferred payments for goods exchanges and in the absence of a realistic plan to have the debts paid down in aggregate, these will sooner or later be defaulted on. Such mass defaults, as seen in 2008, will lead to a collapse of industrial demand and a collapse of these fictive savings. In as far as there was ever a savings glut, it was a purely fictive one.
    "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here." - Deus Ex HR

  • #2
    Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

    I never thought they meant savings glut in the West. It is those sneaky Chinese who save half of their money and don't send it back to the U.S. We are entitled to that money. Hell, it has dead Americans on the front!

    It is somewhat similar to the wealthy here. All the money that the peeps would have circulated has been flowing up to them. They do not spend their money on goods and services. There is a point where enough is enough. If you give 10 bucks to a million people, it will all be spent immediately, and then spent again, etc. If you give a rich woman another 10 million, where will it go? Basically, to loans to the people that suck interest and dollars OUT of the system.

    The trick, really, is to get people to buy the stuff we make. We make treasuries. The Chinese government buys them. The people keep their savings in gold, land, and under the bed. They can't buy treasuries and missiles. The only hope is the younger generation of Chinese who love their iPhones and see nothing wrong with going into debt to finance consumption.

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    • #3
      Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

      What a lot of people appear to overlook when discussing savings as the basis for investment is the fact that we live in a world of fiat capital.

      If the government prints $1 trillion and uses it to fund defense contractors, pay entitlements, etc., that money is accepted and circulates and results in direct economic activity, yet there was no savings (i.e., real capital that has been generated and accumulated) as the basis of this fiat capital. The economic concept that investment cannot originae w/o "savings" (i.e., foregoing immediate consumption) may apply globally over the long term, but it is clear that it does not apply or constrain activity in the shorter term, e.g., generations at least.

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      • #4
        Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

        I think 'global savings glut' has been clearly shown to be a ridiculous fantasy coined by moronic pseudo-economists to describe something far more simpler: crappy FIRE directed monetary policies in the West.

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        • #5
          Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

          more like a global inflationary paper digital glut as Bennie and the (ink)Jets keep their fingers on Ctrl-P.

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          • #6
            Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
            I think 'global savings glut' has been clearly shown to be a ridiculous fantasy coined by moronic pseudo-economists to describe something far more simpler: crappy FIRE directed monetary policies in the West.
            +1

            (Pales beside the long-living ridiculous fantasy of 'energy independence')

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            • #7
              Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

              Originally posted by don View Post
              +1

              (Pales beside the long-living ridiculous fantasy of 'energy independence')
              There's nothing ridiculous about energy independence. The only thing that is ridiculous is the notion we can do it at the current level of consumption.

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              • #8
                Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                There's nothing ridiculous about energy independence. The only thing that is ridiculous is the notion we can do it at the current level of consumption.
                Au contrair, pal. In the real world, not in a faultlessly built theoretical construct, energy ownership is the key to global power politics. Control the energy, you control those needing it. Most of the wars between First World countries have been fought in part to address this industrial necessity. Are you unaware that the acceptance of the bonar is based on its reserve currency for energy - principally oil. And that the primary mission of the US military is to defend that status.

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                • #9
                  Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                  Originally posted by don View Post
                  Au contrair, pal. In the real world, not in a faultlessly built theoretical construct, energy ownership is the key to global power politics. Control the energy, you control those needing it. Most of the wars between First World countries have been fought in part to address this industrial necessity. Are you unaware that the acceptance of the bonar is based on its reserve currency for energy - principally oil. And that the primary mission of the US military is to defend that status.
                  The US has vast reserves of energy resources. Enough to address its own needs when consumption is reduced. So what is your point? Energy independence is not some myth.

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                  • #10
                    Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                    Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                    The US has vast reserves of energy resources. Enough to address its own needs when consumption is reduced. So what is your point? Energy independence is not some myth.
                    My point? Geo-political history to date, over the last 150 years. Has little to do with US energy reserves and everything to do with global energy reserves and who controls them.

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                    • #11
                      Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                      Originally posted by don View Post
                      My point? Geo-political history to date, over the last 150 years. Has little to do with US energy reserves and everything to do with global energy reserves and who controls them.
                      But the issue we are discussing is energy independence, not geo-politics.

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                      • #12
                        Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                        Originally posted by BadJuJu
                        The US has vast reserves of energy resources. Enough to address its own needs when consumption is reduced. So what is your point? Energy independence is not some myth.
                        You keep harping on that the US *can* be energy independent. The reality is *anyone* can be energy dependent if they reduce themselves to an appropriately low level.

                        The reason the US is in Afghanistan, and was in Iraq, has nothing to do with the ability to be energy independent but everything to do with the ability to continue existing lifestyles with minimal disruption.

                        The shift you speak of seems very easy for you as a young single person, but you ignore the fact that most of the energy consumed at a national level is not at the personal energy purchase level.

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                        • #13
                          Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                          The shift you speak of seems very easy for you as a young single person, but you ignore the fact that most of the energy consumed at a national level is not at the personal energy purchase level.
                          Around 50% of our petroleum consumption is for personal transportation, for instance. 10% is for air travel, which can be seen as an extension of personal travel. How much of the non-personal transportation can be cut? What about bioplastics instead of petro-derived plastics?

                          The fact is is that none of this is going to be easy. It will be disruptive. A lot of people won't like it. But people will deal with it. My grandmother is nearly 80-years-old and has never had a car. She walks miles and miles per day. So saying that I am a young person and it will be much easier for me is a little disingenuous as it won't be impossible for older people to change. It will just require a different approach to life.

                          And think of the amount of money that will be saved collectively by people being healthier!!
                          Last edited by BadJuju; December 15, 2012, 03:25 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                            Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                            Around 50% of our petroleum consumption is for personal transportation, for instance. 10% is for air travel, which can be seen as an extension of personal travel. How much of the non-personal transportation can be cut? What about bioplastics instead of petro-derived plastics?

                            The fact is is that none of this is going to be easy. It will be disruptive. A lot of people won't like it. But people will deal with it. My grandmother is nearly 80-years-old and has never had a car. She walks miles and miles per day. So saying that I am a young person and it will be much easier for me is a little disingenuous as it won't be impossible for older people to change. It will just require a different approach to life.

                            And think of the amount of money that will be saved collectively by people being healthier!!
                            You don't seem to get it and I can't seem to explain what I mean to you so - have a good weekend!

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                            • #15
                              Re: "Global savings glut" - most ridiculous mainstream myth?

                              I am all for saving our natural resources until we drain the middle east of all of our oil.

                              In reality, Islam is a very dangerous religion to the West. As they say, you get more conservative as you get older. I had no idea how insane these "people" are. The only way to fight them is to keep them in the dark ages, where I believe they are most comfortable anyway. Oil gives them money and power. It is war, and the U.S. has been taking the long road (unbelievable, I know). You cannot allow these crazies to continue to spread. When they run out of oil (food and water), they will die.

                              The control of energy is true power in today's world. Energy independence is silly. Why use our own oil when we can exploit our enemy's? Peak oil is known, and not denied by our security apparatus. When the declines become more and more evident, the winners will be the ones with oil left under their control.

                              We all think of Carter as a bad president. Perhaps we may want to change that assessment; his middle east policy continues to allow our daughters to go to school.

                              How to make this related to the thread? It is not, I guess. There is no such thing as a savings glut. Unless, they mean people are not investing with their savings, they are just buying paper. Then, I think there could be some truth to it. The middle east is a good example of this, I suppose. Lot's of money, no wealth except piles of gold in kings' vaults and treasury digits (at HSBC no doubt).

                              I have no doubt a huge war will wipe out the population there. The West will allow this to happen once the oil stops flowing in meaningful volumes. What is even better? One group of crazies thinks their crazy religion is better than the other group of crazies. They will eliminate themselves. And the only true glut will be taken care of by nature.

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