LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

[aaron]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

If the wattage saved on one bulb is 50 watts, over 5 years, how much is that?

50W * 8 hours per day = 400W
400W * 365 days per year = 146,000W or 146 KW
In my area we have cheap power. It is about 11 cents/KW.

That works out to about $15 dollars a year.

I took a quick look online. The price to buy a bulb is running about $30 dollars.

So, it pays for itself in 2 years.
Everything after 2 years should be profit.

[charliebrown]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

LED replacement night light bulbs are just about a no brainer.

They are cheap $2 - $4 a bulb, and since a night light has such a high duty cycle, on roughly 12 hours a day every day, the bulb pays for itself in about a year. I do have the night light bases where a photo-electric is supposed to turn off the night light in the day time but they don't work so good. A conventional bulb just dims to maybe 1/3 -1/2 power on a sunny day.
cloudy days the bulb is probably near full power.

full bulb LED replacements are just to much money. As c1ue explains I just have too many bulbs in the house. Most bulbs are only on a few hours a day. I have two kids who run around the house, and throw things. It is likely we will have bulb or two broken long before its life cycle. Also mentioned is the power spike issue. Not sure how often we get these, since most of our other equipment is immune to spikes, or is plugged into a surge protector.

I also don't know if the the LEDs will really last as long as they claim. CFLs burn out long before their rated tube life.

If the cost per bulb drops to where the bulb will pay for itself in roughly a year, I will consider replacing some of my high duty cycle lights with these.

Also, is the mercury thing in the CFLs that bad? I understand if I snort the vapor, probably no, but in a large room, if one of theses breaks, how much mercury is really released, what is the concetration. If I open a window right away, how much can I vent? does it instantly change to a liquid metal? If so, can I carefully clean it up?

[grapejelly]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

If the wattage saved on one bulb is 50 watts, over 5 years, how much is that?

50W * 8 hours per day = 400W
400W * 365 days per year = 146,000W or 146 KW
In my area we have cheap power. It is about 11 cents/KW.

That works out to about $15 dollars a year.

I took a quick look online. The price to buy a bulb is running about $30 dollars.

So, it pays for itself in 2 years.
Everything after 2 years should be profit.

the price of the bulbs must be taken into account, I'm talking the standard halogen bulbs. We have indoor floodlights and the bulbs are about $6 each and we replace them at least once per year, so that's another $12 in two years, and maybe even more than that as they do seem to burn out pretty often, call it $15. So they pay for themselves in about a year really especially with more expensive electricity.

[peakishmael]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

The problem is that to get to this savings, you need to replace 40 light bulbs.

My take on the big picture: for those who are still on incandescents, throw them all away and replace with either CFLs or LEDs, the latter if you have the cash and are willing to pay a bit extra to avoid the tiny bit of mercury or to get the better color quality. Either CFLs or LEDs will save you a boatload.

For those (like me) who are already 100% CFLs, and want to move to LEDs: since the cost savings are still non-existent, the main reasons for going with LEDs are mercury and color quality. IMO, no good rationale to go and replace 40 bulbs all at once, discarding good CFLs. Instead, use up any existing stock of replacement CFLs you have, and then start replacing with LEDs as CFLs fail, always putting LEDs into the fixtures that get used the most. Not in basements, closets, etc.

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

No, that's overall.

i know i'm gonna end up feeling dumb trying to influence your POV on this, mr c1ue - but hey, i'm here to learn and you happen to be one of the best 'instructors' on the tulip - so i dont mind - more on the (my) math of this on next, to mr aaron
(i enjoy these types of argument/discussions, btw - in case that hasnt been noted ;)

I'd note that the average wattage for light bulbs is lower than 100 watts, I assumed a similar ratio (i.e. 3/4 reduction) in electricity usage.

The problem is that to get to this savings, you need to replace 40 light bulbs.

well ya dont _need_ to replace em all at same time, just as they burn out - but if you could save 10x your investement in replacements the first year (or so) - why wouldnt ya?

Spending $1600 to save $100/year is a very long term proposition which also carries back end risks (i.e. the LEDs don't perform as well as advertised in the future).

why its NUTS, IMHO - to pay 10-20x for LEDs vs CFL's - when A: the price of the LEDs is bound to drop like a rock within the next couple of years (just like CFL's have done) - and B: why take the expensive risk that the LED's _wont_ perform as expected ? what, just to brag to all the neighbors how environmentally correct you are because you paid 20times the cost of CFL's to achieve the same scale of kwh reduction as LED's ? (and the 'risk' of CFL's is a known quantity: they have proven themselves (to me anyway) to be both efficient and reliable, as i havent had but one burnout in over 2 years and that happened during a power failure/surge - and i dont plan on huffing the merc dust for a cheap thrill ;)

now..if i was spending somebody elses money, maybe - but when i'm spending my own? - i'm all done being an 'early-adapter' and last years 'hot new thing' is good nuff for this environmentally-'enlightened' consumer

Obviously if you're saving $400/year because of the super high electricity prices in Hawaii, that is a very different proposition with much less risk. But still $1600.
...
I'd say that if the proposition was so obvious, then why bother with passing a law forcing choice?

well thats another question/argument entirely - as i will agree that its NOT the place of the .gov to be telling us what we can/cannot spend OUR money on - esp when the idiots in congress cant even pass a GD budget, never mind a balanced one!

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

If the wattage saved on one bulb is 50 watts, over 5 years, how much is that?

50W * 8 hours per day = 400W
400W * 365 days per year = 146,000W or 146 KW
In my area we have cheap power. It is about 11 cents/KW.

That works out to about $15 dollars a year.

ok = perty good 'cipherin there, mr aaron.

but lets use my prev example of the 100w lamp (the math is easier) and an 8hour burn time (your mileage may vary)

the 100w incand equiv in terms of CFL (or LED) is 23w
1x23w x 8hours/day = .19kwh/day x 365days = 70kwh/year (rounding up on all) x (your rate) of .11/kwh =
$7.63 per lamp/year
vs an incand 1x100w x 8hours/day = .80kwh/day x 365days = 292kwh/year x (your rate) of .11/kwh =
$32.12 per lamp/year

so we get a _savings_ of
$24.49 per lamp, per year from an investment of appx 2bux for a CFL23w equiv to the 100w incand

or - to put it in perspective of mr c1ue's observation of appx 40lamps in a typical house: 1000bux in return YEAR ONE, for an investment of appx 100bux in CFLs (vs 1000bux minimum worth of LED's)

I took a quick look online. The price to buy a bulb is running about $30 dollars.

So, it pays for itself in 2 years.
Everything after 2 years should be profit.

even if you use the LED's, you would get a quicker payback than that - esp when the end of 'daylight savings time' turns day into night sometime this month, on into dec-jan when the nights get loooong and maybe you need to keep the lights on later into the evening?

but if you go with the common cents CFL solution, the payback is appx 1 month even at your nice/cheap rate of .11
never mind my outrageously confiscatory rate of .44/kwh (ah.. the 'price of paradise' ....)

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

+1

and the color of the CFLs - at least the ones i'm burning = nearly same as an incandescent, in any case a quite acceptable quality of light - i have mostly par30 cans (recessed) the lamps are FEITelectric (from costco), using 15w (65w equiv)
burning at a 'color temp' of 2700k = 'soft white' range

the 'warm up' period i dont find objectionable either = a plus when you go into the batroom in the dark, they come up slowly so you dont get blinded by the instant full-on blaze of incand types

My take on the big picture: for those who are still on incandescents, throw them all away and replace with either CFLs or LEDs, the latter if you have the cash and are willing to pay a bit extra to avoid the tiny bit of mercury or to get the better color quality. Either CFLs or LEDs will save you a boatload.

For those (like me) who are already 100% CFLs, and want to move to LEDs: since the cost savings are still non-existent, the main reasons for going with LEDs are mercury and color quality. IMO, no good rationale to go and replace 40 bulbs all at once, discarding good CFLs. Instead, use up any existing stock of replacement CFLs you have, and then start replacing with LEDs as CFLs fail, always putting LEDs into the fixtures that get used the most. Not in basements, closets, etc.

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

LED replacement night light bulbs are just about a no brainer.

+1
i'd say so, no hesitation = simple math again: a typical incand 'night light' = 6w
vs .6w (thats 1/10th the watts of the incand) of the 'megabright' type (costco, appx 1.50ea) that i'm using = very nice little nitelite, can change the color it puts out too - a dozen of these things wont even _spin_ yer elektric meter, their consumption so tiny
and they even shut themselves off, to boot... have had only one fail in over 2 years (during the prev mentioned surge)

They are cheap $2 - $4 a bulb, and since a night light has such a high duty cycle, on roughly 12 hours a day every day, the bulb pays for itself in about a year. I do have the night light bases where a photo-electric is supposed to turn off the night light in the day time but they don't work so good. A conventional bulb just dims to maybe 1/3 -1/2 power on a sunny day.
cloudy days the bulb is probably near full power.

and gets HOT, to boot.

full bulb LED replacements are just to much money. As c1ue explains I just have too many bulbs in the house. Most bulbs are only on a few hours a day. I have two kids who run around the house, and throw things. It is likely we will have bulb or two broken long before its life cycle. Also mentioned is the power spike issue. Not sure how often we get these, since most of our other equipment is immune to spikes, or is plugged into a surge protector.

I also don't know if the the LEDs will really last as long as they claim. CFLs burn out long before their rated tube life.

see my prev reply - havent had any of mine burn out in over 2years, cept for a surge event that took out one old one, after it had been in service for over a year.. the exception were the 'dim-ables' - they didnt like to be dimmed, not with a typical/cheap dimmer (lutron) anyway - lousy dim range too - gave up on those/took em all back (cheerfully refunded, gotta luv costco) after 2 sets both failed within a few months - maybe LED's will dim better? - my solution for the kitchen was to break up a 3 can string into 2 sep ckts, with a reg incand in the middle of 2 CFL's - when want full light, use CFL's, when want 'mood lighting/ambience' after galley chores are done, goto the dim-able incand in the middle

If the cost per bulb drops to where the bulb will pay for itself in roughly a year, I will consider replacing some of my high duty cycle lights with these.

i'm pleased to advise that moment is here, cb; try costco or homedepot, regular/standard CFL's are appx 1.50-2.00 ea in the multipaks - par30's (for can/recessed) are just a bit more - we had a utility-subsidized discount program out here that covered almost 1/2 the retail cost a couple years back - they have dropped substantially in this period ('deflation' ? ;)

Also, is the mercury thing in the CFLs that bad? I understand if I snort the vapor, probably no, but in a large room, if one of theses breaks, how much mercury is really released, what is the concetration. If I open a window right away, how much can I vent? does it instantly change to a liquid metal? If so, can I carefully clean it up?

yepper - ya dont wanna be huffin that stuff, for sure - but its in the dust/coating the inside of the lamp, is part of what makes them glow, apparently - mr c1ue likely knows more on that?

anyway - didnt mean to be so 'windy' but like to impart/share what little knowledge i do have with the rest of y'all around here, since i learn so much from y'all

now what _was_ i going to do today... oh yeah.. go get some Vitamin D and try mow the lawn

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

the price of the bulbs must be taken into account, I'm talking the standard halogen bulbs. We have indoor floodlights and the bulbs are about $6 each and we replace them at least once per year, so that's another $12 in two years, and maybe even more than that as they do seem to burn out pretty often, call it $15. So they pay for themselves in about a year really especially with more expensive electricity.

my experience/observation would offer that you will have much better luck with CFL's vs halogens, which burn MUCH hotter than standard incandescents

methinks you will find that the CFL's are also cheaper than halogens.

[lektrode]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

would like to add one more bit of 'enlightenment' on this topic.

starting with a question:

if we can accept the fact that CFL's (or LED's) cost _much_ less to operate, thereby paying for themselves in somewhere between 1 month and 2 years (depending on whos _math_ one wants to believe) ???

who reading this thinks the price of KWH's will _ever_ be going _down_ again? (and just how fast will the escalation of electric rates allow an even speedier payback on _investment_ in lightbulbs?? make cents for YOU)

just a thought to leave those who are still fighting the logically/obvious conclusion that replacing ALL of edison's heatbulbs
has become a NO BRAINER, no matter what ones political POV is (even mr steve's ;)

and i suspect that bd got more back/out of this one than he ever wildly dreamed of, eh bd?

[grapejelly]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

I hate CFLs and think the mercury is very dangerous and the light is poor quality to boot.

[c1ue]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

well ya dont _need_ to replace em all at same time, just as they burn out - but if you could save 10x your investement in replacements the first year (or so) - why wouldnt ya?

Because not everyone has that much money to 'invest' into a light bulb.

The same argument is used for hybrid/electric vehicles: you lock in your fuel costs.

But many people cannot afford the $12K to $18K premium associated with hybrid/electric vs. gasoline cars.

I'd also note that a lot of the benefit is a function of the actual cost of electricity vs. the expected lifetimes.

Given that we haven't had widespread CFL use for more than 4 or 5 years and we don't have full life LED data at all, it is very difficult to say just what the environmental and lifetime economics equations look like.

The mercury from a CFL by itself is probably a non factor unless you're pregnant, but then again what happens over time?

I personally still use incandescent bulbs - my entire electric bill is about 2040 kwh/year = $326 @ $0.16/kwh, of which *maybe* $50 is due to lighting.

I started with CFL bulbs, but they were so poor that the net effect was to put in ever larger wattages and additional light sources.

Now I use incandescents for primary living areas, CFLs in less used areas, and halogen in the bathrooms.

[shiny!]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

The mercury from a CFL by itself is probably a non factor unless you're pregnant, but then again what happens over time?

What is the environmental consequence of millions of mercury-laden CFLs ending up in landfills?

[peakishmael]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

What is the environmental consequence of millions of mercury-laden CFLs ending up in landfills?

A subject of debate of course. If comparing to incandescents, one may (or may not) wish to consider the airborne mercury from coal-fired plants. CFL advocates argue that incandescents cause WORSE mercury pollution, if you take coal-fired plants into account. LED's clearly have an advantage over both.

[charliebrown]

Re: LED lightbulbs now more widely available for consumers

If the cost per bulb drops to where the bulb will pay for itself in about a year or two ...

Lektrode I was referring to LEDs. As for CFLs, If you can live with the different color tempeture light, (I can), and the potential mecury issue (I can), the slow startup time (I can't), Then CFL's are a no brainer. For the startup time, on my multi-bulbed lamps, I screw in one incandescent, and the rest CFLs.

Once again at nearly $30.00 a bulb, I don't think LEDs are such a no brainer yet. Maybe if you have some lights in your house that are on a lot. One or two bulbs in my house qualify for that. Most don't. If LED's have instant light, I might try swapping out the incandescent in my TV / family room, as this light burns from dusk until bed time, which is a long time in the great white north in winter. There are too many times when I want to go into some rooms and have instant light, like when I'm looking for the cat in the middle of the night to make sure she isn't locked in somewhere.

What about traditional flourescent bulbs, do they have mercury too? I might be convinced to put in a large overhead flourescent in the kitchen.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...et_Mercury.pdf

Do CFLs contain mercury?

CFLs contain a very small amount of mercury sealed within the glass tubing – an average of 4 milligrams (mg). By
comparison, older thermometers contain about 500 milligrams of mercury – an amount equal to the mercury in
125 CFLs. Mercury is an essential part of CFLs; it allows the bulb to be an efficient light source. No mercury is
released when the bulbs are intact (not broken) or in use.
Most makers of light bulbs have reduced mercury in their fluorescent lighting products. Thanks to technology
advances and a commitment from members of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association, the average
mercury content in CFLs has dropped at least 20 percent or more in the past several years. Some manufacturers

have even made further reductions, dropping mercury content to 1 mg per light bulb.

Most mercury vapor inside fluorescent light bulbs becomes bound to the inside of the light bulb as it is used. EPA
estimates that the rest of the mercury within a CFL – about 11 percent

2 – is released into air or water when it is
sent to a landfill, assuming the light bulb is broken. Therefore, if all 272 million CFLs3 sold in 2009 were sent to a
landfill (versus recycled, as a worst case) – they would add 0.12 metric tons, or 0.12 percent, to U.S. mercury
emissions caused by humans.

Now I understand there is spin going on here, dropping a thermometer does not produce mercury vapor, or mercury containing dust. I will also assume that not all of the mercury in the bulb is released as a dust, and that the majority of the dust will remain in the bulb. Also even though I do have two boys that run and wrestle and throw stuff as boys do, I have not had a broken bulb in the house for over a decade.

So if I follow the guide lines about, evacuating the room for a few hours, shutting down my hvac, cleaning up with a damp, cloth, sealing all the broken parts in an airtite container, how many milli-grams of mercury am I releasing into my home?
How does that compare to the mecury in the air that comes from ash from coal fire power plants?