Buy a GUN!

[flintlock]

Re: Buy a GUN!

I'm a BIG supporter of the right(in some places like NZ where I live, privilege) to own firearms.

For all firearms owners I support the absolute need to handle and store firearms safely...in NZ it's a requirement.

As far as owning firearms for protection and defensive purposes, even most(in my opinion) Law Enforcement officers are ill prepared to use them effectively.

Most LE gunfight engagement distances are within 6 feet, and most rounds fired still miss.

And that's for folks with some minimum levels of training.

Effectively using firearms under high physical and mental stress can be taught.....but few are actually taught well or enough.

And it's a highly perishable skill.

That's where my concern lies....and that's for civilians AND law enforcement.....for almost everyone...simply not enough training.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

Agree 100% about the training. I was watching Pulp Fiction last night with my daughter. Your comment reminded me of the scene where the kid comes out of the bath firing saying "die MFers" and misses six times!

[reggie]

Re: Buy a GUN!

With all due respect in return...I have personal experience in, and understanding of, both environments...US and New Zealand....as well as a considerable amount of operational experience using firearms going after naughty people as well as formally instructing/coaching many in their proper use in a range environment and in simulated high stress close quarters battle environments.

I've posted facts, careful to differentiate when referencing NZ, and my personal informed opinions/concerns.

Please enlighten me as to how I've confused the two as I fail to see it?

You said: I'm a BIG supporter of the right(in some places like NZ where I live, privilege) to own firearms.

My comment had to do with not understand exactly what it is that you are a BIG supporter of: God, Inalienable Rights?

I don't see how one can buys into the American system of an Inalienable right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, and then select or choose which rights one supports. I would think that it's either all of them, or one doesn't buy into the system at all, or one buys into a system where it's other men who grant these rights.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Buy a GUN!

You said: I'm a BIG supporter of the right(in some places like NZ where I live, privilege) to own firearms.

My comment had to do with not understand exactly what it is that you are a BIG supporter of: God, Inalienable Rights?

I don't see how one can buys into the American system of an Inalienable right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, and then select or choose which rights one supports. I would think that it's either all of them, or one doesn't buy into the system at all, or one buys into a system where it's other men who grant these rights.

To elaborate.....I've lived under both systems......my right and/or privilege to own/use firearms under both has it's strengths and weaknesses.

I support a RIGHT to firearms ownership for law abiding citizens(excluding violent felons)....largely for the reason that I believe it has a non-obsolete role as a "4th branch of government" to potentially prevent/deter totalitarianism.

And while I also agree with the right to defend yourself from an uninvited attacker, while in your own home...I have SOME problems with legal public carriage of handguns....as well as ease of ownership of handguns.

Having a look at firearms crime, there's an awfully big chunk of it attributed to handguns.

NZ has little firearms crime.....we also have a highly regulated handgun environment...I believe there is a strong correlation.

I don't think the NZ solution will work now, or will EVER necessarily work in the US due to the volume of handguns in circulation and the incredibly long time it would take to work them out of illegal circulation....it would probably take centuries in a society that expects instantaneous results.

I'm also not a black or white, all or nothing, kind of guy(except for a few topics/issues)......I see the world as a pretty grey place.

I'm pretty big on Freedom.....but it starts to get a bit curly when my freedom butts up against someone elses freedom.

I'm even bigger on responsibilities than I am on rights......I'm happy to give up a right to carry a handgun for what would appear to be a proven public good locally......but would strongly oppose anyone attempting to deter me from my responsibility as a citizen from acting as an active hedge, if necessary, against totalitarianism.

[reggie]

Re: Buy a GUN!

To elaborate.....I've lived under both systems......my right and/or privilege to own/use firearms under both has it's strengths and weaknesses.

I support a RIGHT to firearms ownership for law abiding citizens(excluding violent felons)....largely for the reason that I believe it has a non-obsolete role as a "4th branch of government" to potentially prevent/deter totalitarianism.

And while I also agree with the right to defend yourself from an uninvited attacker, while in your own home...I have SOME problems with legal public carriage of handguns....as well as ease of ownership of handguns.

Having a look at firearms crime, there's an awfully big chunk of it attributed to handguns.

NZ has little firearms crime.....we also have a highly regulated handgun environment...I believe there is a strong correlation.

I don't think the NZ solution will work now, or will EVER necessarily work in the US due to the volume of handguns in circulation and the incredibly long time it would take to work them out of illegal circulation....it would probably take centuries in a society that expects instantaneous results.

I'm also not a black or white, all or nothing, kind of guy(except for a few topics/issues)......I see the world as a pretty grey place.

I'm pretty big on Freedom.....but it starts to get a bit curly when my freedom butts up against someone elses freedom.

I'm even bigger on responsibilities than I am on rights......I'm happy to give up a right to carry a handgun for what would appear to be a proven public good locally......but would strongly oppose anyone attempting to deter me from my responsibility as a citizen from acting as an active hedge, if necessary, against totalitarianism.

So, where do you (or the politician that you elect) get the power to impose your will on me, as I am a member of the public.

[flintlock]

Re: Buy a GUN!

To elaborate.....I've lived under both systems......my right and/or privilege to own/use firearms under both has it's strengths and weaknesses.

I support a RIGHT to firearms ownership for law abiding citizens(excluding violent felons)....largely for the reason that I believe it has a non-obsolete role as a "4th branch of government" to potentially prevent/deter totalitarianism.

And while I also agree with the right to defend yourself from an uninvited attacker, while in your own home...I have SOME problems with legal public carriage of handguns....as well as ease of ownership of handguns.

Having a look at firearms crime, there's an awfully big chunk of it attributed to handguns.

NZ has little firearms crime.....we also have a highly regulated handgun environment...I believe there is a strong correlation.

I don't think the NZ solution will work now, or will EVER necessarily work in the US due to the volume of handguns in circulation and the incredibly long time it would take to work them out of illegal circulation....it would probably take centuries in a society that expects instantaneous results.

I'm also not a black or white, all or nothing, kind of guy(except for a few topics/issues)......I see the world as a pretty grey place.

I'm pretty big on Freedom.....but it starts to get a bit curly when my freedom butts up against someone elses freedom.

I'm even bigger on responsibilities than I am on rights......I'm happy to give up a right to carry a handgun for what would appear to be a proven public good locally......but would strongly oppose anyone attempting to deter me from my responsibility as a citizen from acting as an active hedge, if necessary, against totalitarianism.

Glad to hear someone else gets the anti-totalitarianism angle of the second amendment. Only people who know nothing about totalitarianism would think this has no value in the discussion. That its all about hunting, or self-defense against criminals, or some other red herring

I can't help but think, in the context of when the constitution was written, that the 2nd amendment was aimed squarely at totalitarianism. I might even venture to guess that protection vs criminals was not even on the author's mind, not that I have a particular problem with handguns used for this purpose, if proper training in involved.

Like you said, Pandora's box has been opened. Too many handguns already on the streets. Its only when you recall the lethality of 18th century handguns, you quickly realize that handguns were probably not what they meant by "arms". More likely they were talking about muskets, and in significant numbers, as a deterrent to a Lexington/Concord type situation.( disarming the local militias)

I do believe the general failure by the government to deter/prevent violent crime does give credence to the idea of expanding the second amendment to cover personal self defense using firearms. ( if that in fact would be an expansion. I'm no 2nd A expert)