Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

[touchring]

Is communism winning democracy?

"Communist market economy".

1. Property can be acquired at will - building high speed rails.

2. State controls the banks, can force banks to issue loans without restraint.

3. Municipal governments are involved in business enterprise - real estate in particular.

4. Biggest firms are owned by the state and controlled by the politburo, they can receive unlimited state funding to finance dumping policies or to acquire strategic resources.

5. 2 sets of accounting books - one for the stock market and one for the directors. With rosy picture painted, even insolvent companies can raise much more money from the stock market than they could had investors known the real financial status.

[AverageAmerican]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

There was an effort in 2008 to rewrite The Stafford Act to give the government the right to literally seize private food and producers in times of "disaster' at the discretion of the President. This is the 1st step towards agricultural collectivism. This is what led to mass starvation in Russia. Communism is winning Democracy. Note: The revision of the Stafford Act was stated to be needed in the 2008 assessment of the threat of EMPs on the nations electrical grid. Americans don't read these reports...unless they have become completely disgusted with the system...someone like me.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Is communism winning democracy?

"Communist market economy".

1. Property can be acquired at will - building high speed rails.

2. State controls the banks, can force banks to issue loans without restraint.

3. Municipal governments are involved in business enterprise - real estate in particular.

4. Biggest firms are owned by the state and controlled by the politburo, they can receive unlimited state funding to finance dumping policies or to acquire strategic resources.

5. 2 sets of accounting books - one for the stock market and one for the directors. With rosy picture painted, even insolvent companies can raise much more money from the stock market than they could had investors known the real financial status.

Evidence supports your hypothesis.
The actual practice of global free trade has the Chinese firms, with all the advantages you list (and others), bidding against western firms in a market place where the purchase decision made is on price alone.

They say every poker game has a patsy, and if you don't know it is, it's you.
I think China knows who the patsy is in the game of global free trade.
Perhaps we deserve to lose.

[Sharky]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Is communism winning democracy?

What do you mean by "winning"? Are the communist countries like China taking jobs from democracies like the US? No; we're sending the jobs there, they aren't being taken. Do they have a higher GDP growth? Maybe, but only because they count things like building skyscrapers and shopping centers that remain empty. Higher GDP per capita? US still wins by a mile there. Higher personal freedom? US. Better availability of consumer products? US (even if many of them are actually manufactured in China).

"Communist market economy".

That's an oxymoron. A market economy is impossible under communism. China is communist. Their centrally-controlled, command-based economy is based on graft and political pull -- the application of force, not the market.

1. Property can be acquired at will - building high speed rails.

You mean land can be stolen at will by the government? The US has done that in the past, too. It's called eminent domain, and is how first the slow-speed rail, and later the National Highway System were built. Could easily be done again for high-speed rail if there was a strong enough motivation to do so.

2. State controls the banks, can force banks to issue loans without restraint.

US pretty much does the same thing, right? Between the Fed and the FDIC, they can force banks to do things, like, oh, I don't know, buy Countrywide. Or save GM. Or GE. Etc.

3. Municipal governments are involved in business enterprise - real estate in particular.

This is an advantage? Seems like a sign of corruption to me.

4. Biggest firms are owned by the state and controlled by the politburo, they can receive unlimited state funding to finance dumping policies or to acquire strategic resources.

The US is taking the fascist approach: the government doesn't own the biggest firms; they just control them. Look at the whole military industrial complex, for example.

5. 2 sets of accounting books - one for the stock market and one for the directors. With rosy picture painted, even insolvent companies can raise much more money from the stock market than they could had investors known the real financial status.

You think this doesn't happen in the US, too? Banks are a current example, but anyone who believes modern accounting these days is just naive. Again, not an advantage. Fleecing your investors will damage you in the long run.

[aaron]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Fleecing your investors will damage you in the long run.

This is how it is supposed to work, but that system is broken now. Fleecing your investors is GOOD for you in the short run. It is so good that the long run is taken care of.

[flintlock]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

I'm not really clear on the point of this thread. "Communism winning democracy"? If it is intended to mean that our brand of so-called "Democracy" is becoming more and more like Communism, then I agree.

[Sharky]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

This is how it is supposed to work, but that system is broken now. Fleecing your investors is GOOD for you in the short run. It is so good that the long run is taken care of.

I agree that many people think that way, but I think they are mistaken.

Fleecing your investors will damage your ability to raise capital in the long run, and can easily become fatal. A functional, healthy, income-generating company is worth far, far more than one that has been bubble-ized and raided. Plus, aiding and abetting a badly broken system just helps the whole house of cards come crumbling down that much faster -- and what good is money if there's nothing left to spend it on?

There's also the moral side: any reasonably healthy non-sociopath realizes that fleecing is a moral crime at the very least (and fraud is a real crime, even if so many today aren't being prosecuted for it). Even if they get away with it in the short term, the result is guilt and other forms of self-hatred and self-doubt, and a destruction of self-esteem. I doubt such people can be truly happy in the long term. Sure, in the short term it can be like a drug; they get a boost and think it feels good. In the long term, they'll be looking over their shoulder, waiting for the (probably inevitable) blowback, never feeling safe or secure.

[touchring]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

I'm not really clear on the point of this thread. "Communism winning democracy"? If it is intended to mean that our brand of so-called "Democracy" is becoming more and more like Communism, then I agree.

No, the US is a democracy. A democracy is short term (4-year term) - voters look at the present only and the president and congress has only got 4 years to their worth.

A communist market economy state on the other hand can take on policies that would take 10-20 years to achieve the final objective, e.g. suppressing prices of rare earth only to monopolize the market later, suppressing currency to gain factories and technology, dumping products at a loss to wipe out competition (many Chinese SOE factories are operating at a loss anyway).

To give an analogy, the US is like a boxer in an arena, throwing a punch and dodging a punch, reflex actions only, whereas the Chinese are playing chess.

When you can plan long term, there are many useful strategies you can use, such as the 30th stratagem of the 36 strategies:-

Make the host and the guest exchange roles

Usurp leadership in a situation where you are normally subordinate. Infiltrate your target. Initially, pretend to be a guest to be accepted, but develop from inside and become the owner later.

http://www.china-holiday.com/english...tagems/30.html

[Sharky]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

No, the US is a democracy. A democracy is short term (5 year term) - voters look at the present only.

A communist market economy state can take on policies that would take 10-20 years to achieve the final objective, e.g. suppressing prices of rare earth only to monopolize the market later, suppressing currency to gain factories.

You make a good argument against government planning by a democracy. However, in true capitalism, long-term planning by businesses is also possible. One of the many bad things that government tinkering in the economy does is to destroy that type of long-term planning -- that's true in communism, too; maybe not for the government, but certainly for businesses.

Another way to look at it is that a few minds in the form of central planners (of any variety) will never be as creative or broad-ranging in their thinking as a country full of entrepreneurs.

[touchring]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Another way to look at it is that a few minds in the form of central planners (of any variety) will never be as creative or broad-ranging in their thinking as a country full of entrepreneurs.

Creativity is useless since ideas can be copied. The Chinese invented half the modern world but so what?

paper, book printing, paper money, fractional banking, noodles, gun powder, compass, cannons, bombs, toothbrush, cast iron, chemical warfare, fireworks, inoculation, kite, land mine, matchsticks, rockets, porcelain, ship rudder, modern steel, toilet paper are all Chinese inventions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

[flintlock]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Are you making an argument for communism???If so, I have to disagree. Long term economic planning? How'd that work out for Stalinist USSR? It may work for some in really poor regions, at least temporarily, but living standards of 1st world non-communist nations pretty much disprove any argument for communism. China is only booming because they had only one way to go, up. Eventually equilibrium will set in and the apparent "strength" of China will not be so apparent. In the US, our poor live better than the rich lived 200 years ago. I think it boils down to the state vs individual. The STATE may be better off with Communism, but the individual almost never. But how do we really live our lives? As individuals or as cogs in the machine of the state? I know I don't get up every morning worried if I can do my part to help Uncle Sam compete vs China. Sorry, but I find no satisfaction if the US wins or loses in some global contest. I really don't see why people care so much about this outdated argument. The only success any communist country has had has been when they began to embrace capitalist tendencies. Any autocratic form of government can claim more efficiency by the fact it doesn't have to get a group of humans to agree on something every few years. So what? You should be making an argument for a benevolent dictator in that case, not decrepit communism.

[touchring]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Are you making an argument for communism???

I'm talking about the communist market economy, in which the state maintains control over vital businesses that operate as private entities in a free market economy, and not the old style USSR communism which has proven not to work.

Such a system can be very powerful, as exemplified by Temasek Holdings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temasek_Holdings), which even a small city state like Singapore can have so much influence in South East Asia and Australia even.

In another 15-20 years, China will have a similar organization that is 100 times larger and 100 times more powerful.

[Sharky]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Creativity is useless since ideas can be copied. The Chinese invented half the modern world but so what?

paper, book printing, paper money, fractional banking, noodles, gun powder, compass, cannons, bombs, toothbrush, cast iron, chemical warfare, fireworks, inoculation, kite, land mine, matchsticks, rockets, porcelain, ship rudder, modern steel, toilet paper are all Chinese inventions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

I think you mean that the Chinese invented half of the ancient world. After a couple thousand years, they still had a billion or so people living in poverty.

"Ideas" involve a lot more than invention. The Chinese are trying to copy capitalism, but they're picking-and-choosing the parts they like that they think they can tolerate, without realizing that the whole is much more than the sum of its parts.

I'll say it again: the Chinese do not have a market economy. They have a planned, command economy.

[flintlock]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Okay, I guess I need to read up on the "new" communism.

[touchring]

Re: Ideology battle: "Communist market economy" winning democratic market economy?

Okay, I guess I need to read up on the "new" communism.

they call it communism with Chinese characteristic. It makes sense if you consider that the Chinese pray to the God of Fortune, so pure Marxism as it is contradicts Chinese culture and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Shen