My Friends ………..it time to push back!

[Sharky]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

The actions by the UK police were 100% predictable. Statism always leads to violence, and the UK is nothing if not statist in the extreme. The only way to win is by not playing their game.

[DSpencer]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

One, we don't always have the option to vote out the incumbents. In the lase election I had the option of voting for McCain, whom I despise, or a liberal Democrat. What choice is that? We seriously need an option for "None of the Above" for every race on every ballot.

Two, even if we vote out the incumbents, the new pols aren't any better because they're beholden to the same donors before they even get sworn in. "In with the new boss, same as the old boss".

Vote third party. Or just don't vote in that election, or at all. Some people say you're throwing your vote away. Personally, I think it's much more satisfying than being "effective" in voting for an evil politician...even the lesser of two.

I do agree that it's probably fantasy to think that voting will solve our problems. We need more direct action by citizens.

I still think the problem is a lack of a clear agenda. Lots of people are "mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore"...but they don't know who exactly they're mad at and what they're not going to take.

I do like your suggestions of withdrawing financial support, but there's problems with that too. For example I can avoid the TSA by not flying, but that seems more like losing than winning. What if they have scanners on the highway next? Do I stop driving also?

[shiny!]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

"THEY", as mliu_01 so aptly pointed out, have been slowly tightening the noose for years. We can no longer travel without "showing our papers", getting molested or radiated. We cannot react with violence because THEY have better weapons to use against us. The script kiddies doing the denial of service attacks are just playing into their hands, because this will be used as an excuse to curb the Internet. People are at risk even having discussions about how to fight back.

The persecution of Assange has shown us that THEY can destroy our lives without due process. The Governments, the Banksters, the Industries that poison us in the name of Capitalism... THEY are the same Beast.

We cannot fight them directly. THEY are depending on us to try so as to gain even more control. But THEY have one weakness and that is that THEY must eat. Money is their food, and that is the one thing that we can deny them. THEY cannot arrest us and throw us into jail for not spending money. THEY cannot arrest us for living so frugally that we can afford to earn less money, and therefore pay less in taxes.

"No one can manipulate you as long as you don't want anything." I say we stop acting as Consumer-Sheep and quietly, peacefully OPT OUT of THEIR system.

Pushing back is force against force, and it will just beget more force against us. Instead of Karate we use Tai Chi. Instead of fighting, we flow. How? We walk away from the game and make them irrelevant to our daily lives. We build a new society without them, leaving them in the corner wondering what happened.

Instead of buying THEIR stuff, we relearn how to make our own stuff. Instead of buying their frankenfood, we plant Victory gardens and grow our own. Instead of showing our papers, bending over and grabbing our ankles to fly, we stop flying. Instead of going into debt to send our children to overpriced and increasingly irrelevant Universities, we boycott the Universities. We return to apprenticeships and mentoring of our youth, teaching them how to do real, honest work in the community.

It takes discipline to not fly, not spend, when we're used to doing what we want, when we want. It feels awkward the first few times we tell someone, "No, I'll have to miss it because I'm not flying" or, "Sorry, we're not buying Christmas presents this year. Instead I've baked you some brownies."

It only feels like losing in the beginning, when they still hold the illusion of power over us. Just a few months of people not using their credit cards, not flying, not enrolling in or attending University, and the cracks would start to show. A few months longer, maybe a year, and things would change, I guarantee it. And nobody would get arrested for anything.

IMO these self-imposed disciplines are more effective than violence and are a very small price to pay compared to having our brains bashed in, or living as slaves.

[Kadriana]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

"THEY", as mliu_01 so aptly pointed out, have been slowly tightening the noose for years. We can no longer travel without "showing our papers", getting molested or radiated. We cannot react with violence because THEY have better weapons to use against us. The script kiddies doing the denial of service attacks are just playing into their hands, because this will be used as an excuse to curb the Internet. People are at risk even having discussions about how to fight back.

The persecution of Assange has shown us that THEY can destroy our lives without due process. The Governments, the Banksters, the Industries that poison us in the name of Capitalism... THEY are the same Beast.

We cannot fight them directly. THEY are depending on us to try so as to gain even more control. But THEY have one weakness and that is that THEY must eat. Money is their food, and that is the one thing that we can deny them. THEY cannot arrest us and throw us into jail for not spending money. THEY cannot arrest us for living so frugally that we can afford to earn less money, and therefore pay less in taxes.

"No one can manipulate you as long as you don't want anything." I say we stop acting as Consumer-Sheep and quietly, peacefully OPT OUT of THEIR system.

Pushing back is force against force, and it will just beget more force against us. Instead of Karate we use Tai Chi. Instead of fighting, we flow. How? We walk away from the game and make them irrelevant to our daily lives. We build a new society without them, leaving them in the corner wondering what happened.

Instead of buying THEIR stuff, we relearn how to make our own stuff. Instead of buying their frankenfood, we plant Victory gardens and grow our own. Instead of showing our papers, bending over and grabbing our ankles to fly, we stop flying. Instead of going into debt to send our children to overpriced and increasingly irrelevant Universities, we boycott the Universities. We return to apprenticeships and mentoring of our youth, teaching them how to do real, honest work in the community.

It takes discipline to not fly, not spend, when we're used to doing what we want, when we want. It feels awkward the first few times we tell someone, "No, I'll have to miss it because I'm not flying" or, "Sorry, we're not buying Christmas presents this year. Instead I've baked you some brownies."

It only feels like losing in the beginning, when they still hold the illusion of power over us. Just a few months of people not using their credit cards, not flying, not enrolling in or attending University, and the cracks would start to show. A few months longer, maybe a year, and things would change, I guarantee it. And nobody would get arrested for anything.

IMO these self-imposed disciplines are more effective than violence and are a very small price to pay compared to having our brains bashed in, or living as slaves.

My husband and I have been slowly changing our lives so we become more self-sufficient. I've learned how to can and make bread from scratch. We've expanded are garden and last year, planted quite a few berry plants and fruit trees. We even got a couple chickens who give us 6 eggs a day. We had a rooster but sent him to freezer camp after he attacked me. Last summer we installed solar panels and we have a well for our water. To fill our urge to buy something, we have started going to coin auctions. It's now become our favorite date night activity. I have two small children and I worry what things are going to be like in 10-20 years. The idea that China could be the new world, economic power before my children graduate hs is a little scary.

[DSpencer]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

The persecution of Assange has shown us that THEY can destroy our lives without due process. The Governments, the Banksters, the Industries that poison us in the name of Capitalism... THEY are the same Beast.

We cannot fight them directly. THEY are depending on us to try so as to gain even more control. But THEY have one weakness and that is that THEY must eat. Money is their food, and that is the one thing that we can deny them. THEY cannot arrest us and throw us into jail for not spending money. THEY cannot arrest us for living so frugally that we can afford to earn less money, and therefore pay less in taxes.

"No one can manipulate you as long as you don't want anything." I say we stop acting as Consumer-Sheep and quietly, peacefully OPT OUT of THEIR system.

Instead of buying THEIR stuff, we relearn how to make our own stuff. Instead of buying their frankenfood, we plant Victory gardens and grow our own. Instead of showing our papers, bending over and grabbing our ankles to fly, we stop flying. Instead of going into debt to send our children to overpriced and increasingly irrelevant Universities, we boycott the Universities. We return to apprenticeships and mentoring of our youth, teaching them how to do real, honest work in the community.

So are you fighting capitalism? Because I'm about as pro-capitalist as they come. If change comes, what do you want it to be?

They can throw us in jail for not paying taxes. They can throw us in jail for not obeying their regulations. Even if you lived in a cabin in the woods and grew all your own food, you'd still owe property taxes. Unless I'm mistaken you'd also have to buy health insurance or pay a fine right? And don't forget that your cabin better meet building code and hopefully it's zoned properly and isn't considered to be "blight".

I rent a relatively small house with my girlfriend and younger brother. I have no debt. I grew a garden last summer and will grow a bigger one next year. But I live in Ohio and its pretty damn cold in the winter. I'd need way more land and time to grow enough food to live on. So do I go into debt (with a bankster) to get enough land? That seems counterproductive. I even bought into a "herd share" so that I can buy raw milk at 8 dollars a gallon from "my" local herd. Even that "loophole" will probably be closed eventually and it's only a matter of time until all small farms are regulated out of existence. I sold all my stock except what's in my 401k. I barely have a choice in how to invest that money. If I don't have a 401k I just pay more in taxes anyway.I do what i can, but I still have a regular job and try to earn as much money as I can. I drive to work.

As far as the TSA it's airports (and bus stations) today, highways tomorrow and sidewalks next. Do I give up my freedom to travel and live like a feudal serf just to avoid getting groped? That just trades one freedom for another. Like I said above, even if you retreat into the smallest possible monetary footprint, you can't escape completely.

My point isn't that your ideas are bad, like I said I'm trying them already to a point. I just personally feel that the noose has already tightened to the point where there is no escape without at least loosening it first. That means pushing back in some way or another. Whether it's voting, protest, boycotts etc I don't know. Hopefully not violence.

[shiny!]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

My husband and I have been slowly changing our lives so we become more self-sufficient. I've learned how to can and make bread from scratch. We've expanded are garden and last year, planted quite a few berry plants and fruit trees. We even got a couple chickens who give us 6 eggs a day. We had a rooster but sent him to freezer camp after he attacked me. Last summer we installed solar panels and we have a well for our water. To fill our urge to buy something, we have started going to coin auctions. It's now become our favorite date night activity. I have two small children and I worry what things are going to be like in 10-20 years. The idea that China could be the new world, economic power before my children graduate hs is a little scary.

That's what I'm talking about. You guys are ahead of the curve.

The more I think about this, the more I think it's the right idea because it dovetails so nicely as a solution for several problems simultaneously. We have the need to Starve the Beast by withdrawing our support, and we have the need to adapt to a world of Peak Cheap Oil that is fast approaching.

The Beast depends on both our support AND on cheap oil to survive. China, India and other developing countries with huge populations want their share of oil to achieve a standard of living comparable to what we have here, but these days are soon to be behind us. We are in a World War for oil, and in a generation nobody will live the way we're living now.

The mistake people and societies make when hit with a transformational event is to not see it for what it is, but to waste time waiting for things to return to "normal".

To pay their bills they plow through all their retirement savings before filing for bankruptcy, even though bankruptcy would have protected their retirement savings. Every time the price of gasoline spikes they consider getting rid of the SUV, but then prices go down a bit or they get used to it and don't think about it again until the next spike. They feel uneasy every time the government demands they sacrifice more of their liberty. They might grumble, but they go along with it. They never seem to learn that no matter how much they give up, the government will never be satisfied and will always demand more control.

This is because we are living in an addictive system. The Government is addicted to power and control, and we are addicted to comfort. We are living a collective "Battered Wife Syndrome".

In Battered Wife Syndrome, the abuser abuses but tells his wife it's "for her own good". He erodes her self-confidence by convincing her that she can't survive without him. The abuser is controlling to the extreme, but will never be satisfied and will always want more.

The wife, OTOH, survives by denying the abuse is actually abuse, by minimizing (he didn't punch me, he only slapped me), by forgetting past lies and abuses, by believing his promises that it will never happen again because he has changed. No, really he has. No, this time he really, really means it...

If she tries to fight back he'll beat the crap out of her. People on the outside don't understand why she doesn't just leave, but they don't understand how hard it is not just to leave, but to first realize that things are actually so bad that she should leave. In order to leave she has to first stop making excuses to herself. She has to first stop being addicted to the relationship.

Usually she puts off the decision until there is a crisis so bad that the choice is made for her. She ends running away one night with nothing but the clothes on her back (that's my story), or the police are called on a domestic dispute and she ends up in a shelter, or in the hospital. At this point she has no plan in sight. She didn't stash away any money for making a graceful transition. Oftentimes her fear and low self-esteem is so overwhelming that she goes back to her abuser several times before she is ready to break away for good.

Does any of this sound familar? Look at our addictions to credit, to consumption, to distractions, to believing lies. Look at our passivity in exchange for creature comforts. Look at our perceived helplessness in the face of increasingly intrusive and abusive government agents, and our willingness to go along with the abuse as long as they ultimately give us what we want (a ride on an airplane, for example).

The abusive relationships we find ourselves in with our Governments and our Creditors say as much about us as it says about them. Anyone who thinks he can break his addictions and achieve real freedom without any pain or discomfort is befooling himself.

Highly functioning, non-addictive people adapt well to changes. They are ahead of the curve. Peak Cheap Oil is going to force us all to live small instead of large, and to change our consumption patterns from energy-intensive just-in-time shipping, to local manufacture, farming and trade.

By working to adopt this kind of lifestyle now instead of trying to figure out how we can keep our current high-consumption lifestyle with minimum discomfort, we will be making a graceful transition to the world ahead AND Starving the Beast at the same time.

[Dave Stratman]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

Vote third party. Or just don't vote in that election, or at all. Some people say you're throwing your vote away. Personally, I think it's much more satisfying than being "effective" in voting for an evil politician...even the lesser of two.

I do agree that it's probably fantasy to think that voting will solve our problems. We need more direct action by citizens.

I still think the problem is a lack of a clear agenda. Lots of people are "mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore"...but they don't know who exactly they're mad at and what they're not going to take.

I do like your suggestions of withdrawing financial support, but there's problems with that too. For example I can avoid the TSA by not flying, but that seems more like losing than winning. What if they have scanners on the highway next? Do I stop driving also?

As you acknowledge, it's a fantasy to think that voting will change anything. Neither, I think, will living frugally or off the grid.

Nothing has ever changed in this country or any other that I'm aware of except through mass movements and direct action. The civil rights movement, the labor movement of the early 20th century and the 1930s, the anti-Vietnam war movement: all these involved millions of people fighting The Powers That Be in the streets, in the workplace, even in the ranks of the military. Such movements always begin with people talking with each other--as we're doing now--discussing their common grievances, finding that they're not alone, and coming up with ideas of change.

I think we need to build a mass movement that challenges the power of the Master Class--Wall Street, the corporatocracy, the Pentagon and arms merchants. The goal of the movement should be to break their stranglehold on society. We need to make a revolution to build a society based on our best shared values of mutual support, equality, and democracy, not the values of greed and elitism and militarism that the ruling class promote.

One of my favorite quotes about revolution is this one from John Adams:

"What do we mean by the Revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution; it was only an effect and consequence of it. The revolution was in the minds of the people, and this was effected from 1760 – 1775, in the course of fifteen years, before a drop of blood was shed at Lexington."
John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, August 24, 1815

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

It takes discipline to not fly, not spend, when we're used to doing what we want, when we want.

Spending is OK, but choose to spend with small businesses that have honest products and services. Choose where to spend one's own dollars (and don't be spending dollars borrowed from some bank either.)

[renewable]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

The actions by the UK police were 100% predictable. Statism always leads to violence, and the UK is nothing if not statist in the extreme. The only way to win is by not playing their game.

May I recommend the film 'V for Vendetta' - essential viewing, especially for any UK posters imo. The above shot from Westminster bridge of the clock tower could almost have been taken from the film.

[shiny!]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

So are you fighting capitalism? Because I'm about as pro-capitalist as they come. If change comes, what do you want it to be?

No, I'm totally pro-capitalism. I'm an entrepreneur and business owner. When it comes to capitialism, I'm pro-ethics, pro-honesty, and pro-Treat-your-Customers-by-the-Golden-Rule.

They can throw us in jail for not paying taxes. They can throw us in jail for not obeying their regulations.

Please read my post again. I am not advocating tax evasion! I'm saying that if we could learn how to live really frugally, we might be able to afford to live on much less money and work less. Earning less money usually means paying less taxes. Think what would happen if everyone could get by earning so little that they would pay no, or almost no taxes. Government would be unable to continue business as usual. Government would be forced to reduce its size and scope.

Even if you lived in a cabin in the woods and grew all your own food, you'd still owe property taxes. Unless I'm mistaken you'd also have to buy health insurance or pay a fine right? And don't forget that your cabin better meet building code and hopefully it's zoned properly and isn't considered to be "blight".

Please read my post again. I said I was not advocating moving to a cabin in the woods. I don't think that's a realistic or healthy solution for most people. I don't want to escape society, I want to help transform society.

I rent a relatively small house with my girlfriend and younger brother. I have no debt. I grew a garden last summer and will grow a bigger one next year. But I live in Ohio and its pretty damn cold in the winter. I'd need way more land and time to grow enough food to live on. So do I go into debt (with a bankster) to get enough land? That seems counterproductive. I even bought into a "herd share" so that I can buy raw milk at 8 dollars a gallon from "my" local herd. Even that "loophole" will probably be closed eventually and it's only a matter of time until all small farms are regulated out of existence. I sold all my stock except what's in my 401k. I barely have a choice in how to invest that money. If I don't have a 401k I just pay more in taxes anyway.I do what i can, but I still have a regular job and try to earn as much money as I can. I drive to work.

What you're doing is awesome!

But I think you're misunderstanding me, or I didn't express myself clearly. I'm not saying that everyone must be 100% self-sufficient. That's almost impossible in this day and age. Nobody I know has that kind of money. What I am saying is that we can all try to do a little, and then a little more, like you are, to become more self-reliant and less dependent on expensive, energy-intensive, FIRE-type solutions to modern living.

Each of us growing some of our own food- even if it's a container garden on an apartment balcony, canning and food preserving, sewing some of our own clothes again, gifting some home-grown food to a neighbor who likes to sew...

This is how people lived only a few generations ago. It isn't a terrible thing!

Living in smaller, energy-efficient houses. Buying less stuff, buying good used stuff instead of new stuff... these are all ways to rebel against a system that calls us "consumers" instead of "citizens".

As far as the TSA it's airports (and bus stations) today, highways tomorrow and sidewalks next. Do I give up my freedom to travel and live like a feudal serf just to avoid getting groped? That just trades one freedom for another.

No, it doesn't. It's called a "Boycott". When you are forced to show your papers and submit to dehumanizing and/or dangerous treatment or face arrest in order to travel, you have already lost your freedom to travel!

When Ghandi called on Indians to gather their own salt for free instead of buying salt and paying the British salt tax, it was a huge political statement and helped bring down an empire.

Like I said above, even if you retreat into the smallest possible monetary footprint, you can't escape completely.

All I'm saying is that if enough people start to live a more frugal lifestyle, the current sick system will break down and we will create a better system in its place. And the sooner we start creating this system of our own volition the better, because Peak Cheap Oil is going to force frugality whether we like it or not.

My point isn't that your ideas are bad, like I said I'm trying them already to a point. I just personally feel that the noose has already tightened to the point where there is no escape without at least loosening it first. That means pushing back in some way or another. Whether it's voting, protest, boycotts etc I don't know. Hopefully not violence.

[shiny!]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

Spending is OK, but choose to spend with small businesses that have honest products and services. Choose where to spend one's own dollars (and don't be spending dollars borrowed from some bank either.)

Very good points.

[aaron]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

In your scenario it sounds like you and your husband will be sacrificing a lot more in proportion to the pain you are causing "them". In other words, instead of starving the beast, you are starving yourself.

tbtf banks & corps do not need your money. They have all the money they need from the government.

BUT --> your path leads to personal and psychological freedom.

[shiny!]

Re: My Friends ………..it time to push back!

In your scenario it sounds like you and your husband will be sacrificing a lot more in proportion to the pain you are causing "them". In other words, instead of starving the beast, you are starving yourself.

We already live pretty frugally by necessity. I want to get better at making the best of it. Also, you're assuming that no one else is going to want to switch to a simpler life. I have a hunch that I'm not the only one thinking of this. If this becomes the lifestyle of choice for a lot of people it will definitely have an impact.

tbtf banks & corps do not need your money. They have all the money they need from the government.

And the government gets that money from us via taxation. What would happen to the government if a lot of middle class people suddenly put themselves into a tax bracket where they owed little-to-no income tax?

They can institute a national sales tax, but what if people reduce their purchases by, say, 50%?

BUT --> your path leads to personal and psychological freedom.

Yeppers!