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  • Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

    Ethics is the study of proper behavior.

    I claim that the proper basis for a healthy ethos is a healthy community.

    Some community of individuals will adapt over time a perhaps loosely bound set of guidelines for what is proper behavior within that community. Sometimes these rules may have a practical basis in the survival needs of the community and its members. Sometimes the rules may seem arbitrary, though can still contribute to the need for a community to form and maintain an identity and to distinguish group members from outsiders.

    Traditionally, communities were geographically based. If you lived somewhere and co-operated with the others who lived there in ways familiar and acceptable to them, you could perhaps become one of their community.

    Communities then formed based on certain interests, professions, intellectual disciplines, commercial interests or other common points of human interaction.

    In each case, a healthy community will have some sense of history, some sense of membership (is he "one of us"?), and some sense of proper behavior. More respected "elders" of the community will commonly speak or act in support of that community's ethos.

    Even in present times, over the Web, we see this. The "ethos" on each of Slashdot.com, lkml.org, iTulip.com and FreeRepublic.com (to name four "virtual" communities I have actively participated in) are diverse.

    ===

    Where it seems we get into trouble is when the necessary ethics of a situation are imposed on its participants by outsiders, especially when those outsiders have powerful conflicts of interest. A healthy ethics arises endogenously from a healthy "community", that being hundreds or rarely more than thousands of free acting individuals actively joined in some common situation or endeavor, where everyone knows each other directly or seldom more than once removed. The number of affected or indirectly related individuals may be much larger, even billions. However the formation of an ethics (even an unhealthy one) occurs amongst no more than hundreds or thousands of humans participating in some sort of "community."

    Even the Founding Fathers of these United States where I live fit that description, when they formed the constitutional republic whose deformation I now bemoan. The Founding Fathers knew each other, trusted each other (by and large) and had just been working in concert on some critical endeavors (the American Revolution and the preceding Articles of Confederation.

    ===

    The core Internet infrastructure, such as encoded in the IETF's RFC's, is a product of such a community. It remains a strong and health community so far as I am aware, and is not, itself, seriously threatened by the antics of various national and mega-corporate interests to control the Internet.

    I can almost always get an IP packet from wherever I am to any other connected point on the Web, in almost any location in the world.

    The antics of the various tyrants of the world seldom threaten the Web at the lower layers, the infrastructure that is unnoticed by most users most of the time.

    ===

    What is threatened is a layer higher, at the application, document, information and transaction layer as presented to the human users of the Web.

    We face great controversy over the control of behavior on the Web as it might apply to such dubious actions as child porn, terrorism, fraud, theft, illegal drugs, treason, and other high crimes and misdemeanors.

    The essential question is WHO should determine this.

    The essential answer is that the proper basis for a healthy ethos is a healthy community.

    However the group of participants in the World Wide Web (a few billion humans) is far too large and amorphous to form the basis for the sort of healthy community that could determine such ethics.

    As a practical basis, a few end up deciding for the many.

    ===

    For the lower level, RFC-specified, Internet protocols, this proper community did form, from the relatively small group of experts sufficiently versed in the new technology to participate meaningfully in its conception and development.

    The people who accomplished this, and who still form the expert basis of a world-wide functioning Internet infrastructure, are people who, outside of their role in the Web, are relatively unheard of, powerless, nobodies.

    That is as it should best be. This is an example of the Separation Of Powers, a principle that guided the writing of the U.S. Constitution. When some focus of power is determined necessary to provide uniform control over an element of society, it is best if that focus be held in its own separate and distinct body, dominated by people who have no other substantial authority, so as to avoid issues with a conflict of interest which inevitably occur when multiple forms of power reside in one individual or group. Separation of powers avoids the concentration of absolute power that, in Lord Acton's famous phrase, corrupts absolutely.

    ===

    The essential problem is that we lack an independent and healthy community defining a proper ethos for the higher layers of the Web.

    Instead the definition and enforcement of the necessary ethos for this layer has been assumed by an already all too powerful central oligarchy of governing nations, agencies and corporations.

    This is a certain recipe for Absolute Corruption of this layer of the Web, in the name of protecting its users.

    ===

    I have focused above on the Web, for that is an area in which I have some modest degree of expertise and experience.

    I suppose that we humans have this same basic issue of determining a proper ethos in other "globalized" financial, political, commercial, scientific and economic endeavors. I further fear that the definition and enforcement of the necessary ethos for these other human endeavors has also been already been substantially assumed by an already all too powerful central oligarchy of governing nations, agencies and corporations.

    ===

    I further suspect that The Daily Bell is correct in its central thesis that the Web is the very key to obtaining a healthy resolution to this problem of impending Absolute Corruption, imposed by an increasing Absolute Power.

    For it is via means of the Web that the necessary communities may form a proper and healthy basis for a healthy ethos.

    The freedom of discussion and community formation on the Web must be protected, at all costs. The lack of a reasonable alternative "Defender of Web Safety and Security" has delivered into the hands of some very powerful individuals and groups a very dangerous weapon. Once we grant the present authorities the power to "do the right thing to protect us" on the Web, we will have granted them the power to destroy the greatest potential threat extant to their continuing assumption of ever greater power.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; November 28, 2010, 02:50 AM.
    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

  • #2
    Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
    Ethics is the study of proper behavior.
    "Proper" according to who? I would say it differently:

    Morality is a code of values that guides us in the choices and actions that determine the purpose and course of our lives.

    Ethics is a science that deals with discovering and defining that code.

    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
    I claim that the proper basis for a healthy ethos is a healthy community.
    And I claim that the proper basis for a healthy ethos is a moral individual.

    How can one even determine the health of a community?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

      Your view that ethics is fundamentally the study of the proper (by some a priori or ex deus determination, I suppose) behavior of individuals is far more common, Shanky.

      I am presenting a radically different view here. I can only ask that you hear me out.

      We humans face a fundamental problem establishing proper ethics for an increasing diversity of global activities. We need such ethics, of course. There must be some sense of right and wrong in what we do.

      But the only basis we find for defining such ethics is in the pyramidal power structures of the elite oligarchs. Power rules. Absolute power is ruling increasingly absolutely. And it leads inexorably to absolute corruption.

      The very basis for Ethics, which you correctly describe by the dominate understanding, is failing humanity.
      Last edited by ThePythonicCow; November 28, 2010, 12:33 PM.
      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

        Originally posted by Sharky View Post
        How can one even determine the health of a community?
        A healthy community, like a healthy body:
        • lives long and well,
        • lives sustainably with minimum disruption or consumption of critical underlying resources,
        • contributes generously, usefully and consistently to larger communities, and
        • is structured by rules and order which have some fine and lasting degree of beauty and elegance.
        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

          Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
          A healthy community, like a healthy body:
          • lives long and well,
          • lives sustainably with minimum disruption or consumption of critical underlying resources,
          • contributes generously, usefully and consistently to larger communities, and
          • is structured by rules and order which have some fine and lasting degree of beauty and elegance.
          But communities don't do those things. Individuals in those communities do. A community doesn't live at all; you can't even touch a community; it's just a concept layered on top of individuals. Otherwise, when you say a healthy community "lives long and well." Exactly who within the community lives long and well? On average? So then it's OK if some people live in squalor as long as others live great to offset them? Or is it the median? As long as most people live well, it's OK to suppress a minority?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
            Your view that ethics is fundamentally the study of the proper (by some a priori or ex deus determination, I suppose) behavior of individuals is far more common, Shanky.
            "Shanky." LOL.

            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
            We humans face a fundamental problem establishing proper ethics for an increasing diversity of global activities. We need such ethics, of course. There must be some sense of right and wrong in what we do.
            Agree.

            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
            But the only basis we find for defining such ethics is in the pyramidal power structures of the elite oligarchs. Power rules. Absolute power is ruling increasingly absolutely. And it leads inexorably to absolute corruption.

            The very basis for Ethics, which you correctly describe by the dominate understanding, is failing humanity.
            I agree here too; many of the problems of today are happening because of incorrect ethics. However, for me, the solution is not to redefine ethics to have it in some way apply to societies. The solution is to adopt a correct set of morals on an individual basis. In fact, it is precisely the attempt to put groups ahead of individuals that is at the root of our problems! It's called collectivism, in all of its forms.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

              Originally posted by Sharky View Post
              But communities don't do those things.
              I am describing an alternative view, Sharky (sorry about the "Shanky" misspelling earlier.)

              It is a different view than the one you apparently hold.

              You sound a bit frustrated. You sound as if you think there is but one correct view of this, that communities are nothing more than a concept layered on top of individuals. Apparently you hope that by presenting "the" correct view, you might lead me to see the errors of my post.

              Communities do live in the conceptual and collective behavior of humans and other living creatures, that is correct. Rocks don't form communities. I guess they do form rock piles, but the collective behavior of rock piles is seldom very interesting.

              Consider schools, pods, hives, packs, prides, flocks, herds, and numerous other collections. An alien explorer from another planet could study a single ant or bee forever, and never suspect the nature of an ant colony or a bee hive. They could study you or I, in isolation, forever and never guess the nature of iTulip.com's forums, or the families or neighborhoods or other communities, large and small, mundane and arcane, in which one or the other of us has participated. When you first join a new group, perhaps a new school, church, town, or job, do you not spend some effort to learn the "ways", the history, the stories, the mores, the legends, the symbols, of that new (to you) group?

              Human civilization is not just a bunch of individual humans, forming only what appear to the sentient observer to be patterns, in the manner for example that billiard balls form patterns on a pool table. The collective patterns have a life of their own.

              Now ... hopefully ... I am not committing the same error I've accused you of. I should not expect to convince you that you were just confused and that now I have explained things in the obvious and correct way.

              Rather I stand before you suggesting that we are discussing a couple of philosophical views, the one I'm describing and the one you're describing.

              No, I am not advocating "collectivism", that being the putting of "groups ahead of individuals"

              A healthy community respects, honors and contributes to the well being of all of its members.

              I am describing a viewpoint that is, apparently, different from any you are familiar with. We probably won't get too much further in this discussion until I successfully convey such to you.

              I am not asking you to switch views. I am asking you to recognize the presence of an alternative view.
              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                Noam Chomsky, in the final YouTube segment (9/9) of his 1992 video Manufacturing Consent, speaks of the importance of finding community for the survival of humans:




                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                  The notion of morality as determined by the ethos of a community, as opposed to morality as essentially just an individual quality, provides a more satisfactory explanation for the perennial quandary of whether ethics should be "situational" or not.

                  Certain rules may be fundamental to the well being of a community, and properly persist across generations and millenia, regardless of context. At the same, the same such rule might matter little, might apply in the opposite or might not even be applicable to some other community of some quite distinct nature.
                  Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    You sound a bit frustrated.
                    A little, perhaps; sorry if that comes across in my posts. The view you're describing is similar to one that I've heard a lot, and it's a topic that I feel passionately about.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    You sound as if you think there is but one correct view of this, that communities are nothing more than a concept layered on top of individuals.
                    Yes, I do believe that there is only one correct view. Reality is like that.

                    "Nothing more than" is misleading. Concepts are powerful things. In a similar tone, you could say that language is "nothing more than" a concept layered on top of words.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    Apparently you hope that by presenting "the" correct view, you might lead me to see the errors of my post.
                    No, I've been around enough to know that the chances of me changing anyone's mind in an online forum are close to zero. My main goals here are two-fold: first, I find the process of explaining my views to others to be a useful way for me to understand them better myself. Second, similar to what you said, I have some hope of informing you and others who might read this thread that an alternative view exists.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    Consider schools, pods, hives, packs, prides, flocks, herds, and numerous other collections. An alien explorer from another planet could study a single ant or bee forever, and never suspect the nature of an ant colony or a bee hive. They could study you or I, in isolation, forever and never guess the nature of iTulip.com's forums, or the families or neighborhoods or other communities, large and small, mundane and arcane, in which one or the other of us has participated. When you first join a new group, perhaps a new school, church, town, or job, do you not spend some effort to learn the "ways", the history, the stories, the mores, the legends, the symbols, of that new (to you) group?
                    I don't deny that groups exist. What I do deny is that they are living entities in and of themselves. For example, a group has no rights; only an individual has rights. I also can't say I'm a big "joiner," so no, I don't recall making an effort to do the things you mentioned (except perhaps as a child); I've always tended to march to the beat of my own drum. However, I do understand that others do those things, and that they often receive social value in doing so.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    Human civilization is not just a bunch of individual humans, forming only what appear to the sentient observer to be patterns, in the manner for example that billiard balls form patterns on a pool table. The collective patterns have a life of their own.
                    Here is perhaps the core difference in our points of view. I don't think collective patterns have a life of their own. I also don't think that groups of humans are like billiard balls; we are alive, we consciously, by choice, interact with one another and with the environment.

                    Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                    No, I am not advocating "collectivism", that being the putting of "groups ahead of individuals"

                    A healthy community respects, honors and contributes to the well being of all of its members.
                    The two statements above seem contradictory to me. A "community" can't respect or honor anyone or contribute anything; only individuals can do those things. When you make such a statement, who in the community is supposed to be respecting and honoring who? In your model, what should happen if one member of a community believes one course of action is "healthy," and another member disagrees? Do you simply declare such a community "unhealthy" and move on?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                      Originally posted by Sharky View Post
                      In fact, it is precisely the attempt to put groups ahead of individuals that is at the root of our problems! It's called collectivism, in all of its forms.
                      When you rail against collectivism, may I suggest you might be railing against statist collectivism, that being the increasing centralization of all "public" (outside our skins (*)) matters into a single, omnipotent state. May I suggest further that the proper alternative and antidote to statist collectivism is a multiplicity of diverse communities and associations of various purposes and provinces.

                      It is fitting and proper that we each should have the freedom to associate with and to join as members various and diverse communities, such as might fit our present interests, beliefs, vocation, avocations, geography, and such. Such groupings are the backbones of human civilization.

                      I am absolutely not opposed to people coming together into diverse communities, both physical and virtual. Quite the contrary, I consider such essential.

                      It is the statist collectivist who opposes and seeks to destroy all such communities and associations except the "one true central state." That leads to absolute tyranny, and the statist collectivist must be opposed and defeated, by any means necessary.

                      (*) I just borrowed the above phrase "outside our skins" from a YouTube video I'm watching of Stefan Molyneux interviewing Canadian political philosopher William Gairdner, which you can view at William Gairdner: The Freedomain Radio Interview.
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                        Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                        Noam Chomsky, in the final YouTube segment (9/9) of his 1992 video Manufacturing Consent, speaks of the importance of finding community for the survival of humans
                        No surprise. Chomsky is an anarchist or, I guess, "libertarian socialist" is the politically correct term. He rejects capitalism and private property, and claims to be against the exercise of power in any institutionalized form, yet he endorses labor unions and workers' councils. He also endorses the concepts of "wage slavery" and direct democracy (also known as majority rule and minority oppression, with an individual being the smallest minority). This is just another form of collectivism -- of a particularly evil variety.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                          Originally posted by Sharky View Post
                          The two statements above seem contradictory to me. A "community" can't respect or honor anyone or contribute anything; only individuals can do those things. When you make such a statement, who in the community is supposed to be respecting and honoring who?
                          A community is more than the sum of its parts.

                          Originally posted by Sharky View Post
                          In your model, what should happen if one member of a community believes one course of action is "healthy," and another member disagrees? Do you simply declare such a community "unhealthy" and move on?
                          Health is not binary. Morality is not black and white.

                          The presence of ambiguity and conflict in the application of a world view does not invalidate that view. It is rather more the contrary, in that the absence of such casts grave doubts on the validity of that view.

                          Originally posted by Sharky View Post
                          I don't think collective patterns have a life of their own.
                          Communities so clearly have properties that are more than just the collective properties of their members that it baffles me that anyone could imagine otherwise.

                          Just as you might sense something dangerous in what you find in my posts, I sense something dangerous in what I find in your posts.
                          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                            Originally posted by Sharky View Post
                            No surprise. Chomsky is an anarchist or, ...
                            I rather expected an ad hominem rebuttal to my reference to Chomsky. I too long took his name in vain, for the many years I spent on the "conservative Republican" side of the political aisle.

                            However I did not find the attributes you attribute to him in that video. I heard him railing against the tyranny of the American Empire, with some specifics.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Internet Ethics and a Search for Community.

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              ... a YouTube video I'm watching of Stefan Molyneux interviewing Canadian political philosopher William Gairdner, which you can view at William Gairdner: The Freedomain Radio Interview.
                              I'm still viewing this video. It's good, and it expresses well some of my views above with which you seem to specifically disagree.

                              Take a look and tell me what you hear.
                              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                              Comment

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