BP, its a nightmare!

[Chomsky]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

I, and my views in this thread, have been repeatedly labeled and branded by others with loaded words meant to castrate discussion and discredit the messenger. Today, the thread was moved off the news page to the rant and rave forum. Exactly how should one interpret this?

Moreover, I don't appreciate your attempted re-characterization that I am somehow framing "the denizens of iTulip" as "blandly and uniformly 'indoctrinated'". On the contrary, I have presented my own views, suggested that others continue to reassess their own assumptions, and offered reference material to support my view that may provide others with a different perspective. Furthermore, one of the reasons that I felt that it was appropriate to post such material here was that fact that I believe that the membership here is intelligent enough, open minded enough and caring enough to pursue such a line of discussion in a non-emotional and mature fashion.

But Reggie, it's not the content of your posts that ruffles people, it's the pompous and condescending tone, which is why we all want to shoot the messenger.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Thus Spake Reggie:

I, and my views in this thread ...

Sir, I regret to inform you that your post was not as well received by at least this one reader as you might have intended. It seems however I lack the ability to do anything about this disconnect. Thus it shall be.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

But Reggie, it's not the content of your posts that ruffles people, it's the pompous and condescending tone, which is why we all want to shoot the messenger.

Ok, I will do my best to adjust my tone. Please feel free to PM me in the future.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Thus Spake Reggie:
Sir, I regret to inform you that your post was not as well received by at least this one reader as you might have intended. It seems however I lack the ability to do anything about this disconnect. Thus it shall be.

I believe that we possess very different orientations to the world, and I agree that this may not be resolvable, at least not within the framework of an online discussion forum. However, I also believe that one can't accurately draw any other inferences from this difference in orientation.

[tmicou]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

In one way, this is an excellent example of the result of, what seems probable, that this was caused by the irresponsible decision, not to take advice, by a single individual. So the first thought is to suggest that, in future, all such deep drilling is monitored by a group of senior drilling engineers who must each agree with each step of the process, step by step. And, moreover, that they cannot be overruled by a cretin with administrative functions, but with insufficient understanding of the risks involved.

My second thought has been in mind for some time.

Surely it is possible to rig a screen, perhaps one or two hundred feet in diameter, from the seabed to the surface; so that the main area affected is kept to very small dimensions? That way, we would be able to pump the majority off the surface. It would also stop the distribution of so much under surface oil out into the wider gulf. A series of sheets of canvas, 200 feet in diameter, say, fifty feet high and fitted with buoyancy at the top edge, small weights at the bottom edges, while anchored to the seabed, each fitted inside the other getting slightly LARGER, not smaller as in my previous edition, (apologies everyone), in diameter as they get closer to the surface would prevent much of the pollution from spreading uncontrolled.

Also, this is a device that is easily manufactured and just as easily maintained. No, I agree, there are some serious challenges to doing that, but compared to doing nothing; why not try?

And for what it is worth, why not specify the same system for every other rig?

I will be quite happy to work with anyone who believes this is feasible and wants to try.

Chris, I posted a very similar idea on iTulip a few weeks ago. The idea is to guide the oil with a canvas skirt to where you want it to be. I even suggested pumping water jets at the bottom (and perhaps at intervals) upwards to help guid the oil. And I suggested stopping it at about 300 feet from the surface to avoid hurricanes and at that level we can easily collect the oil.

At the same time, I filled out BP's suggestion form with the same idea. About a week later I got a response that essentially said "We've already thought of that..." but no explanation why it wouldn't work.

Since then, I still think it's a very good idea, with most associated problems solvable. I have thought of one potential big problem though, which is gas build up. The problem goes something like this: Methane goes into solution much more easily at high pressure. It's likely that the amount of gas released near the bottom would saturate the water at depth and as it rises, come out of solution explosively pushing everything above it out of the way in uncontrollable bubbles, with potentially devastating results.

I don't know if that's the reason its not being done, but I can't think of any other.

[touchring]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Chris, I posted a very similar idea on iTulip a few weeks ago. The idea is to guide the oil with a canvas skirt to where you want it to be. I even suggested pumping water jets at the bottom (and perhaps at intervals) upwards to help guid the oil. And I suggested stopping it at about 300 feet from the surface to avoid hurricanes and at that level we can easily collect the oil.

At the same time, I filled out BP's suggestion form with the same idea. About a week later I got a response that essentially said "We've already thought of that..." but no explanation why it wouldn't work.

Since then, I still think it's a very good idea, with most associated problems solvable. I have thought of one potential big problem though, which is gas build up. The problem goes something like this: Methane goes into solution much more easily at high pressure. It's likely that the amount of gas released near the bottom would saturate the water at depth and as it rises, come out of solution explosively pushing everything above it out of the way in uncontrollable bubbles, with potentially devastating results.

I don't know if that's the reason its not being done, but I can't think of any other.

I've also wondered why BP oil containment efforts are crawling at an unbelievably slow snail speed. I got my answer after reading this article first post by GRG55.

BP hands are tied. The Obama administrator only talks, at the end, the relevant department must give approval, if it ever comes.

http://www.financialpost.com/Avertib...808/story.html

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Chris, I posted a very similar idea on iTulip a few weeks ago. The idea is to guide the oil with a canvas skirt to where you want it to be. I even suggested pumping water jets at the bottom (and perhaps at intervals) upwards to help guid the oil.

From Gulfclean.org: Idea to direct oil leak :

The problem is that this situation is more than just catching a "fluid spill" from a broken pipe. The oil is being pressurized by Methyl Hydrates. This is a very strange hydrocarbon gas with some very unusual properties. If it is under pressure it freezes into an ice compound (which is why the big steel dome did not work). as pressure builds the ice forms faster and when either pressure is reduced or temperature increases the ice suddenly expands to 64 times it volume. This is the equivalent of a 5'9" man suddenly becoming the height of the Eiffel Tower. Methyl Hydrates are also extremely flammable and explosive.

[Chris Coles]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Thanks everyone, but I still believe that it is senseless to just let the oil and gas mixture spread over such a large area. Yes, there are problems, but we got to where we are as a civilisation by finding solutions and making things happen. So the skirt needs to be much bigger in diameter, particularly near the surface. Perhaps with a circular ring tube to support the associated surface operations. All of this will present challenges, but they must be overcome. To sit back and "let it happen" is surely not an option.

[Chris Coles]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

I've also wondered why BP oil containment efforts are crawling at an unbelievably slow snail speed. I got my answer after reading this article first post by GRG55.

BP hands are tied. The Obama administrator only talks, at the end, the relevant department must give approval, if it ever comes.

http://www.financialpost.com/Avertib...808/story.html

Last night we watched a Channel 5 TV report about the first three days, between the explosion and sinking of the rig. It was made very clear that there were no preparations in place to deal with such a fire. All the equipment was in store in Houston and took so long to arrive, the rig sank before the fire fighting equipment was available.

But I keep to my point, it must be possible to stop the oil/gas mixture from spreading over such a large area.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

But I keep to my point, it must be possible to stop the oil/gas mixture from spreading over such a large area.

Certainly the priorities of the powers that be (be that BP and/or some other elitists?) have not placed containment as the highest priority.

[touchring]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Latest news.

http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analy...se-sell-assets

BP is in talks with Chinese to sell assets

Friday, 2nd July 2010 BP IN CRISIS


EMMA SADOWSKI


BP COULD be close to securing a deal to shed parts or all of its $9bn (£5.9bn) stake in Pan American Oil to a state-owned Chinese bidder as the embattled oil major faces the worst ever recorded spill disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
It is understood that BP is holding talks with the China National Offshore Oil Corporation to sell part of its 60 per cent stake in the Argentinean production company.
The deal is thought to be part of the company’s plan to raise $10bn from selling assets to help fund the Gulf spill clean-up and the liabilities arising from the disaster.
Analysts believe the deal is a logical move for the Chinese, which are understood to already hold roughly 205m shares in BP.
One analyst commented that Blackstone, which is thought to be providing advice to BP through the sales process of its assets, has close connections in Asia.
BP declined to comment on the deal and said that it was always the company’s intentions to cut $10bn from its assets.
News worsened for BP yesterday after a government report in the US said that more than 140 million gallons of oil have leaked into the water, surpassing the Ixtoc I tragedy in 1979.
The report, which takes into account the oil already collected by BP, puts the spill as the worst recorded oil disaster the region.

[bill]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

I've watched this site grow from its' literal inception, the first stock certificate number 000001 for iTulip.com has my name on it, and I'm typing this in EJ's kitchen drinking his coffee. I'm one of the most contrarian sons of a bitch you'll ever meet, a self-made multimillionaire

Now let me guess, you show up at the same time EJ is starting a new biz, 000001 again? Or maybe you guys are just out joy riding that new beemer.
Have fun and a great 4^th.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Certainly the priorities of the powers that be (be that BP and/or some other elitists?) have not placed containment as the highest priority.

What are the possible motives for this decision? There is no political win with this approach.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

What are the possible motives for this decision?

The main sticking point to shifting from the Dollar to some currency basket (SDR or Wocu or such) for the Reserve Currency is that those currency baskets are pure fiat.

Any self respecting gold bug would say no problem -- back it 100% with real gold and we have ourselves a winner.

As can be heard in the scorn that Paul Volcker apparently expressed for gold ("it's the enemy" or some such quote), you can bet your last paper dollar the current Anglo-American Bankster elite is in no hurry to return to a gold convertible currency. Their modus operandi is clear and has been shown over and over again. They "back" their currency with debt paper, rights to cash flows, and other financial instruments. Typically a short term liability of some cash credit is balanced on the books with a long term asset anticipating debt repayments or incoming cash flows.

For example U.S. Dollars are generated against U.S. Treasury debt, which represents a claim on IRS tax collections. The IRS is perhaps the worlds premier money collection agency at present. On the other hand, the disconnect between the national debt structure in Europe and their continental currency (the Euro) may be the fundamental flaw that dooms the Euro.

For a global currency basket to work as the world Reserve Currency, a means must exist to generate many trillions of "dollars" worth of such monetary unit. That means a global financial instrument representing some sort of claim for future payments is required. The combination of a worsening Gulf of Mexico oil disaster plus a Middle East war that shut down the Straights of Hormuz and Iranian oil production would go a long way toward providing the Oil Crisis needed to motivate a global Carbon Tax. That Carbon Tax could be the financial instrument, the source of future income, against which a global currency could be formed.

Mind you, I don't like what I'm forecasting here. It would be essentially piling our debt problems higher and deeper. I don't see how that can end well.

Also mind you, I am hedging my forecast in my personal finances. They may not be able to pull this off.

Back on the main topic of this thread, BP also has legal and fiduciary motives to minimize and make less visible this spill, so as to minimize fines and other legal liabilities. They may want to hide the spill and disperse it below the ocean surface more than they want to aggressively encourage everyone with an oil spill cleanup capability to come on in and help clean up (thereby making the full extent of the spill quite visible.) They'd rather sweep it under the rug than inventory it completely and publically.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

For a global currency basket to work as the world Reserve Currency, a means must exist to generate many trillions of "dollars" worth of such monetary unit. That means a global financial instrument representing some sort of claim for future payments is required. The combination of a worsening Gulf of Mexico oil disaster plus a Middle East war that shut down the Straights of Hormuz and Iranian oil production would go a long way toward providing the Oil Crisis needed to motivate a global Carbon Tax. That Carbon Tax could be the financial instrument, the source of future income, against which a global currency could be formed.

Thank you.