BP, its a nightmare!

[jtabeb]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

The more OPEN you are the More likely your message is to be recieved. It works.

Google Jtabeb on Itulip.

(Go look at hostage survival situations and building repoir with your captors)

Just saying, you can choose to be secretive on itulip, but understand how that will limit the acceptance of the message that you are trying to convey.

I agree with the policy of voluntary disclosure on Itulip. Posters are free to make up their own mind on which communication techniques will be most effective at conveing their message. Just understand (and I'm SURE THAT WE ALL DO) that openess speeds adoption. And, that a lack of openess may reflect a desire to NOT have a MEME spread too rapidly.

(It is always hardest to assess intent, regardless of the communication presented.)

[touchring]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

if this is the only leak, the leak has reduced significantly.
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_inte...ise_ROV_2.html

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Like every other place on the internet, itulip seems to be getting overrun by conspiracy nutters.

The youtube video that I published earlier in this thread is at best a simulation of a simulation, and at worst a simulacra of a simulacra. Hence, how can anyone here argue for or against truth when the only frame one can see is a video of a white house computer screen supposedly presenting live images taken by BP. Further, how is it that anyone here can legitimately mock or attack me (nice use of a mindless slogan here, by the way) for questioning the images.

Without understanding how the system of objects is created and managed, of which the BP oil spill is merely one subset, how can anyone critically examine any subset of objects that we are supposed to so voraciously consume? Moreover, how is anyone supposed to make life-impacting decisions over these images?

There is simply no tangible baseline that can be validated and verified. So, please explain how it is that anyone who calls out this fact is attacked with loaded semantics, meant to dismiss and discredit? The approach is simply not logical.

[VIT]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

The youtube video that I published earlier in this thread is at best a simulation of a simulation, and at worst a simulacra of a simulacra. Hence, how can anyone here argue for or against truth when the only frame one can see is a video of a white house computer screen supposedly presenting live images taken by BP. Further, how is it that anyone here can legitimately mock or attack me (nice use of a mindless slogan here, by the way) for questioning the images.

Without understanding how the system of objects is created and managed, of which the BP oil spill is merely one subset, how can anyone critically examine any subset of objects that we are supposed to so voraciously consume? Moreover, how is anyone supposed to make life-impacting decisions over these images?

There is simply no tangible baseline that can be validated and verified. So, please explain how it is that anyone who calls out this fact is attacked with loaded semantics, meant to dismiss and discredit? The approach is simply not logical.

Do you personally make any life-impacting decisions over these images of oil spill or maybe you know such people ?

What is a point for anybody to fake the images ? Does it change anything ?
Do you understand how many people and companies are involved in all these operations and how difficult it would be to do this.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

There is simply no tangible baseline that can be validated and verified.

In the particular case of the few video frames showing a door opening and closing, on your posted video above, yes there may well not be a tangible baseline that can be validated. Even there, however, my recollection is that warren_c posted some information that improved our understanding of that video.

However in the general case, there often is such a baseline, flowing through a chain of other people whom one has learned to trust in various ways. The Web of Trust in public key cryptography is a specific instance of such a chain of trust. Many honest and capable people have first hand experience with and expert understanding of bits and pieces of the puzzle (heh! - not so much a puzzle as a large church with many stain glassed windows, caught up in a tornado and thus masquerading as a kaleidescope.) For example I personally might have a little bit of first hand knowledge of large U.S. military or intelligence radar stations, or of a few system software internals of some very large computers operated by the U.S. military or intelligence or NASA.

Over time, we may choose to reveal bits and pieces of who we are. We do so selectively, of course, and when and if and to what extent we do so is a matter of our own choosing.

However ... by revealing various selected aspects of our own lives, views and observations which might overlap with aspects of someone else's life, others can come to judge, based on how our view of those aspects compares with their's, the value (or not) of what we say.

If we find ourselves looking at a black and white splotched animal, and if I keep calling it a cow whilst others competent in animal identification keep calling it a calico cat, then I come not to be trusted in matters of animal identification, and by extension, my bird and fish identifications are given little credence as well.

This web of trust shifts over time for each of us. Whereas ten years ago, I trusted Rush Limbaugh for astute political analysis (and even a little bit for economic analysis), nowadays I would only consider his opinion on a few subjects, such as fine cigars and exorbitantly expensive Florida beach property. Forty years ago, I knew first hand (first ear) that Arthur Janszen had designed some fine electrostatic speakers, but I did not know he had a son named Eric. I am now too deaf too appreciate the speakers sound, and too poor to afford them. But his son does some pretty fair work in some other subjects of interest to me now.

[reallife]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Personally I think it's part of the process of "The Fourth Turning".

The sheeple are slowly waking up to the fact that they have been part of a grandiose system that is filled with lies, fraud, corruption, malfeasance, intentional misdirection, and theft for about 100 years now.

Don't you think that leads to a type of mass distrust on a global scale?

Only 100 years???

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Do you personally make any life-impacting decisions over these images of oil spill or maybe you know such people ?

Just wait for the dialectical solutions that we're about to be given. They're coming very soon.

What is a point for anybody to fake the images ? Does it change anything ?

Umm, the public's orientation to the world.

Do you understand how many people and companies are involved in all these operations and how difficult it would be to do this.

Yes. Not so difficult, because the public is one dimensional, as articulated by Marcuse (ie. not a lot of thought going-on outside prescribed frames of understanding which are centrally distributed).

Tell me again, how do you verify and validate any of the digital images that you see? There's no cryptographic Web of Trust to follow here. And one particular person's background doesn't change that.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Tell me again, how do you verify and validate any of the digital images that you see? There's no cryptographic Web of Trust to follow here. Any one particular person's background doesn't change that.

One does not need digital image processing techniques to mislead the viewer. Just ask any slight-of-hand magician or many a young (or not so young) lady about to embark on a first date.

Cryptography merely encodes this human trust; it does not create the trust.

Validation occurs by observing the correlation over time with other trusted observations, by its consistency with the observers larger world view, and by the transference of trust from other trusted observers.

In other words:

Joe says it's good, so it's likely good. Besides, it agrees with other stuff I've seen or heard of. Yeah, I've suspected as much all along.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

One does not need digital image processing techniques to mislead the viewer. Just ask any slight-of-hand magician or many a young (or not so young) lady about to embark on a first date.

Cryptography merely encodes this human trust; it does not create the trust.

Validation occurs by observing the correlation over time with other trusted observations, by its consistency with the observers larger world view, and by the transference of trust from other trusted observers.

In other words:

Joe says it's good, so it's likely good. Besides, it agrees with other stuff I've seen or heard of. Yeah, I've suspected as much all along.

I'll respond by quoting my friends at John Hopkins....

"If you give a man the correct information for seven years,
he may believe the incorrect information on the first day of
the eighth year when it is necessary, from your point of
view, that he should do so. Your first job is to build the
credibility and the authenticity of your propaganda, and
persuade the enemy to trust you although you are his enemy."

A Psychological Warfare Casebook Operations Research Officer,
Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore (1958)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

"If you give a man the correct information for seven years,
he may believe the incorrect information on the first day of
the eighth year when it is necessary, from your point of
view, that he should do so.

Yup - there is that risk, amongst many risks.

Truth, like life itself, is fragile and fleeting, but also robust and lasting.

So ... would you have us trust nothing and doubt everything? To build a life on such a foundation would be like trying to build a sand castle with sand each particle of which was negatively charged.

P.S. -- Are you of the Skeptic school of thought?

[Starving Steve]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

People in the Ukraine now eat vegetables and mushrooms grown in Chernobyl soil. They have suffered no apparent ill effects from the radionuclides left-over from the Chernobyl melt-down, at least not from those in their diet.

[surfersdsb]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

China will acquire BP, and in time the oil will be taken off the market, shipped directly to China for their own use - it won't even be for sale.

That is not how the oil market works. Oil is a fungible product. Those that own it will sell it to someone who needs it closer to the production and then buy the oil that is closer to them. Who owns the oil company is no way relevant. How much they use is.

[reggie]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Yup - there is that risk, amongst many risks.

Truth, like life itself, is fragile and fleeting, but also robust and lasting.

So ... would you have us trust nothing and doubt everything? To build a life on such a foundation would be like trying to build a sand castle with sand each particle of which was negatively charged.

As far as the risks are concerned, they can be significantly reduced, but not if analysis and meaningful discussion is met with one-dimensional slogan responses. We can learn what/who to trust and what/who not to trust, it's just about learning sciences that we're [deliberately] not exposed to.

I wonder how may eye-rolls I'm getting now?

P.S. -- Are you of the Skeptic school of thought?

No, for that would be a blind response taken by a one-dimensional being.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

We can learn what/who to trust and what/who not to trust, it's just about learning sciences that we're [deliberately] not exposed to.

So, are you saying that:

• who is the messenger matters little, for they can say anything and deceive us all, and
• what is in a digital image matters even less, for it can show anything,
• what does matter is learning certain sciences for by these we may learn what and who to trust or not?

I know of no science sufficiently subtle to bear such a burden.

[sunskyfan]

Re: BP, its a nightmare!

Yes, well, after all, BP is doing God's work ... at least according to their commercials up until April ;).