Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

    The Lusitania, Gulf of Tonkin, etc..... now Kent State...

    Our government masters will always justify evil to promote their own ends.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...illings/print/

    Originally published 04:00 a.m., May 4, 2010, updated 08:15 a.m., May 4, 2010
    New light shed on Kent State killings





    James Rosen SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

    Previously undisclosed FBI documents suggest that the Kent State antiwar protests were more meticulously planned than originally thought and that one or more gunshots may have been fired at embattled Ohio National Guardsmen before their killings of four students and woundings of at least nine others on that searing day in May 1970.

    As the nation marks the 40th anniversary of the Kent State antiwar protests Tuesday, a review of hundreds of previously unpublished investigative reports sheds a new — and very different — light on the tragic episode.

    The upheaval that enveloped the northeastern Ohio campus actually began three days earlier, in downtown Kent. Stirred to action by President Nixon's expansion of U.S. military operations in Cambodia, a roving mob of earnest antiwar activists, hard-core radicals, curious students and others smashed 50 bank and store windows, looted a jewelry store and hurled bricks and bottles at police.

    Four officers suffered injuries, and the mayor declared a civil emergency. Only tear gas dispersed the mob.

    An exhaustive review later concluded that this unrest on the streets — the worst in Kent's history — was "not an organized riot or a planned protest."

    But the FBI's investigation swiftly uncovered reliable evidence that suggested otherwise. Among the strongest was a pre-dawn conversation — never before reported — between two unnamed men overheard inside a campus lounge later that night. Their discussion was witnessed by the girlfriend of a Kent State student and conveyed up the FBI chain of command 15 days later.

    "We did it," one man exulted, according to the inquiry. "We got the riot started."

    The second man expressed disappointment at being excluded from the riot's planning. "Wait until tomorrow night," the leader replied excitedly. "We just got the word. We're going to burn the ROTC building."

    This was 20 hours before the ROTC headquarters on the Kent State campus, an old wooden frame building, was, in fact, burned to the ground.

    "What about the flare?" the second man asked before the leader spotted the coed listening to them and abruptly ended the conversation. Dozens of witnesses later told the FBI they saw a flare used to ignite the blaze.

    Now largely forgotten, the torching of the ROTC building was the true precursor to the killings at Kent State because it triggered the deployment of the National Guard to the fevered campus.

    That deployment climaxed in bloodshed on the afternoon of May 4, 1970, with the guardsmen, clad in gas masks and confronted by angry, rock-throwing students, firing their M-1 rifles 67 times in 13 seconds, killing Allison Krause, Jeffrey Miller, Sandra Scheuer and William Knox Schroeder.

    A report submitted to Attorney General John Mitchell in June 1970 stated "there was no sniper" who could have fired at the guardsmen before the killings.

    Numerous witnesses corroborated this.

    A female freshman provided the FBI with a sworn statement that "there was no shot before [the guardsmen's] volley, and there were no warning shots fired." The Justice Department's internal review cited statements by six guardsmen who "pointedly" told the FBI that their lives were not in danger and that "it was not a shooting situation."

    Yet the declassified FBI files show the FBI already had developed credible evidence suggesting that there was indeed a sniper and that one or more shots may have been fired at the guardsmen first.

    Rumors of a sniper had circulated for at least a day before the fatal confrontation, the documents show. And a memorandum sent to FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover on May 19, 1970, referred to bullet holes found in a tree and a statue — evidence, the report stated, that "indicated that at least two shots had been fired at the National Guard."

    Another interviewee told agents that a guardsman had spoken of "a confirmed report of a sniper."

    It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.

    Then there was the testimony of an ROTC cadet whose identity remains unknown, one of the pervasive redactions concealing the names of all the FBI agents who conducted the interviews and of all those whom they interrogated. Although presumably angry over the demonstrators' destruction of the campus ROTC building, the cadet's calm, precise firsthand account nonetheless carries a credibility not easily dismissed.

    Before the fatal volley, the ROTC cadet told the FBI, he "heard one round, a pause, two rounds, and then the M-1s opened up."

    The report continued that the cadet "stated that the first three rounds were definitely not M-1s. He said they could possibly have been a .45 caliber. … [He] further stated that he heard confirmed reports of sniper fire coming in over both the National Guard radio and the state police radio."

    The cadet also told the FBI he observed demonstrators carrying baseball bats, golf clubs and improvised weapons, including pieces of steel wire cut into footlong sections, along with radios and other electronic devices "used to monitor the police and Guard wavelengths."

    Separately, a female student told the FBI she "recalled hearing what she thought was [the sound of] firecrackers and then a few seconds later [she] heard noise that to her sounded like a machine gun going off, but then later thought it may have been a volley of shots from the Guard."

    Absent the declassification of the FBI's entire investigative file, many questions remain unanswered — including why the documents quoted here were overlooked, or discounted, in the Justice Department's official findings.

    At a minimum, the FBI documents strongly challenge the received narrative that the rioting in downtown Kent was spontaneous and unplanned, that the burning of the ROTC headquarters was similarly impulsive and that the guardsmen's fatal shootings were explicable only as unprovoked acts.

    The FBI files provide, in short, a hidden history of the killings at Kent State. They show that the "four dead in Ohio" more properly belong, in the grand sweep of history, to four days in May, an angry, chaotic and violent interlude when a controversial foreign war came home to American soil.

    • James Rosen, a Fox News correspondent, examined previously undisclosed FBI files on the Kent State shootings while researching his biography "The Strong Man: John Mitchell and the Secrets of Watergate."

  • #2
    Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

    inane,
    move to rant and rave,
    read up, watch the documentaries.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

      Baloney, sliced thin, from the hacks at Faux news. Here's the second sentence of the Publishers Weekly review of Mr. Rosen's book glorifying John Mitchell and his role in Watergate:.

      "Fox News correspondent Rosen applauds Mitchell for his tough law-and-order policies, school-desegregation efforts and hard line against leftist radicals..."

      Sorry, but this should move to Rant and Rave.
      Mr. Rosen was 10 years old and in New York when the event occurred (the world calls it "Kent State", but that community calls it "May 4th").
      Here's a Pulitzer Prize winning photo by a student who was there that day.


      Last edited by thriftyandboringinohio; May 06, 2010, 11:39 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

        http://www.kentstate1970.org/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

          I'm not even clear if the article is saying FBI agents provoked the firing or someone else. "Someone overheard someone talking". Now that's some hard evidence.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

            Where did the phrase
            FBI Provacateur
            in this thread's title come from, abexman? I do not see the word "Provacateur" anywhere in the Washington Times article to which you link.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

              Cow: It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Norman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                  Originally posted by babbittd View Post
                  Cow: It also turned out that the FBI had its own informant and agent-provocateur roaming the crowd, a part-time Kent State student named Terry Norman, who had a camera. Mr. Norman also was armed with a snub-nosed revolver that FBI ballistics tests, first declassified in 1977, concluded had indeed been discharged on that day.
                  Ok ... so Mr. Norman could have been "working for" the FBI, could have fired his gun before (rather than after) the National Guard fired the fatal shots, and could have done so at the request of the FBI ... or not.

                  Being as I am an enthusiastic member of (albeit late comer to) the Tin Foil Hat Brigade, I would be quite willing to believe that the FBI, via its agent Mr. Norman, intentionally provoked the killings of Kent State.

                  However I still cannot conclude that from what I've read here today.

                  The title of this thread still seems to me to be unjustified by the evidence presented here.

                  P.S. -- That doesn't mean I'm hoping for this thread's Title to be fixed. As a retrograde Doomer, I'd sooner see convincing evidence ;).
                  Last edited by ThePythonicCow; May 06, 2010, 08:35 PM.
                  Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                    According to your own link,

                    ...when the FBI lab report indicated that it had been fired since its last cleaning. The lab was unable to ascertain where or when the gun had been fired.
                    So he doesn't always clean his gun. Unless we know the pistol was immediately seized for testing, the test doesn't really prove anything.

                    Did anyone claim to see a "student" firing a pistol? Is the supposed conspiracy the idea that he fired his pistol to trigger the ONG volley or that he joined in at shooting the students? I'm still not clear on that.

                    I think the NG soldiers were pissed off and one guy fired and then all hell broke loose. Kind of a Lexington type situation. Another reason you don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it.

                    I think that is metalman in the bellbottoms and pointy shoes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                      Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                      Another reason you don't point a gun at someone unless you intend to use it.
                      Well ... unless the one's your pointing your gun at also have guns, and you intend for them to use their guns ;).

                      But yes, as you note, the evidence before us here "doesn't really prove anything."
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                        It's my understanding the soldiers faced no serious threat when they fired, as the nearest wounded student was still about 70 feet away. They had fixed bayonets as well. So it was probably more anger than fear that led to the firing. Many soldiers did not fire. I think we learned a lot from this tragedy about how to use troops in this kind of situation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                          Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                          It's my understanding the soldiers faced no serious threat when they fired, as the nearest wounded student was still about 70 feet away. They had fixed bayonets as well. So it was probably more anger than fear that led to the firing. Many soldiers did not fire. I think we learned a lot from this tragedy about how to use troops in this kind of situation.
                          That's the way the locals seem to see it. There's a lot of sympathy for the individual kids in the guard (now 60 or 70 years old) who have to live with this, they weren't much older than the students they shot. KSU now has a center to teach folks how to de-escalate and get reasonable when conflict flares.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                            Originally posted by thriftyandboringinohio View Post
                            That's the way the locals seem to see it. There's a lot of sympathy for the individual kids in the guard (now 60 or 70 years old) who have to live with this, they weren't much older than the students they shot. KSU now has a center to teach folks how to de-escalate and get reasonable when conflict flares.
                            My high school friend's father was one of the soldiers at Kent State. He always gave the impression that it was more out of fear and always defended the shooting as justified. He still has a helmet with large dent made by students throwing rocks.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Kent State Killings Sparked by FBI Provacateur show FBI documents

                              As stated:
                              At a minimum, the FBI documents strongly challenge the received narrative that the rioting in downtown Kent was spontaneous and unplanned, that the burning of the ROTC headquarters was similarly impulsive and that the guardsmen's fatal shootings were explicable only as unprovoked acts.

                              Yes, it is probably too strong to state without a shadow of a doubt the FBI sparked this event. However some questions should be put forth if the papers are to be believed:

                              1. why did the FBI hide the fact they had personnel present, especially if he was not 'active' at the time - though we don't know if he was active or not...
                              2. why/how does the FBI justify having armed agents, seemingly undercover, at any university at any time?
                              3. is there any evidence other students at Kent were armed?
                              4. what to make of the ballistics tests? If you suspect he fired after the incident, why when no one else was armed, and this guy was minding his own business as a perhaps semi-professional FBI-trained guy should do, why was he attacked and needing to discharge his weapon?

                              How about releasing the rest of these FBI files?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X