Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

[bpr]

By now most of you should know of the wikileaks release of video of the 2007 killing of two Reuters photographers along with civilians by the US military.

I'm not interested in arguments about the morality of the war, or the horrific elements of the video itself, or the justification or denigration of the decisions made that day or anything of that nature.

I'm interested in specifics, and that's why I'm asking here. We have a lot of military folks and a lot of pilots and a lot of engineers on this site that can answer a pretty basic question I have about this video:

Approximately how far away from the target is the gunner and his helicopter?

It may be impossible to tell from a still, since we are not given the focal length of the camera lens, but given the tiny focal area (about one square block) and the speed of an Apache helicopter while circling (unknown to me) and the possible radius of its path, I'd like to know how far away and how high the helicopter was from its target.

Would the target even be able to detect it in the sky?

It seems to take quite a while for the helicopter to circle the targeted area, that's why I ask.

You have to be logged in to see the video and/or embed it on Youtube, so I'll post the link:

http://www.collateralmurder.com/


Here are some other links:
Guardian
Reuters Letter FROM the Editor

As a civilian I am totally unable to interpret this video. There's been a lot of chatter about it, but, horrific as it is, I'd like some expert opinions on the subject.

I thought this would be a good place to ask since many of you could calculate this in your head and some of you can give a rough estimate based on real-life personal experience (not necessarily in a combat situation, but as a pilot).

How far away is the gunner from the target here?
How High?
Could the Apache be detected by the victims? Seen? Heard?

What's the perspective?

[touchring]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

Approximately how far away from the target is the gunner and his helicopter?

Isn't this military secret?

[marvenger]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I was asking the same question. Didn'tget a straight answer bu tit seems helicopter was a long way away. Some of the posters said it was plausible that the chopper was so trigger happy because it was concerned about protecting a bradley vehicle patrol in the area, ie not overtly worried about its own safety,although to me it just seemed like they were going that looks like it could possibly be an RPG lets blow the hell out of them. happens in war i guess.

[bpr]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

Isn't this military secret?

Indeed, this may be why the Pentagon denied Reuters' FOIA request for over two years, but there are other possible reasons.

At one point in the video, the gunner states that he's not positioned to take the shot he's authorised for (They're behind a building). At another point, the gunner mentions that he can't fire due to an "Azimuth limit." I have no idea what that means.

Any of these may be adequate explanations of why this video poses a security threat to forces in Iraq, but as a civilian with no context I cannot adequately interpret the video.

Context means distance: how far away was the helicopter?

The co-founder of Wikileaks states himself that the resolution was far higher for those in the aircraft than the video that we have here:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/6...pe_us_military

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

At another point, the gunner mentions that he can't fire due to an "Azimuth limit." I have no idea what that means.

I suspect that the gun can only swing some limited degree to the left or right of its center position, not in a full 360° circle. So this would mean the chopper was turned too far one way or the other for the gunner to swing the gun onto the target.

[bpr]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I suspect that the gun can only swing some limited degree to the left or right of its center position, not in a full 360° circle. So this would mean the chopper was turned too far one way or the other for the gunner to swing the gun onto the target.

Did you watch the video? It appears that he says this with the targets in his sights, and there is some technical (computer, not mechanical) malfunction. It's like "WTF? I'm getting an azimuth limit." He thought he could fire.

[Sharky]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

One way to estimate the distance is by estimating the time from the sound of when the 30mm cannon fires to when the bullets impact the target. Assuming they're using something like the M230E1 chain cannon, it has a muzzle velocity of about 800 m/s, with a maximum range of about 4000 m, and a time-in-flight of about 2 seconds for 1000 m; for longer distances, drag decreases average velocity considerably: 3000 m takes about 12 seconds.

As a rough guess, watching the video, the time-in-flight looks to me like a little under a second.

So, maybe 500 to 600 m away?

Another way to estimate distance is by using the size of known objects within a known field-of-view. If we assume the close-up shots were taken with the 1.6 degree TADS FLIR (a guess, based on the camera's specs, and the fact that they occasionally switch back to a much wider view), it looks like the range might vary between roughly 150 and 600 m (closer earlier in the video, and more distant later), which is roughly in-line with the estimate above.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

Did you watch the video? It appears that he says this with the targets in his sights, and there is some technical (computer, not mechanical) malfunction. It's like "WTF? I'm getting an azimuth limit." He thought he could fire.

I had watched it a day ago and forgotten when I posted on "azimuth limit" above. What you say sounds right. So ... perhaps "azimuth limit" is supposed to mean what I said (gun doesn't swing that far) but perhaps that error showed up when it shouldn't have, due to some computer glitch as you suggest. Beats me. All I know is what I read in the newspaper my google search results.

[jtabeb]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

By now most of you should know of the wikileaks release of video of the 2007 killing of two Reuters photographers along with civilians by the US military.

I'm not interested in arguments about the morality of the war, or the horrific elements of the video itself, or the justification or denigration of the decisions made that day or anything of that nature.

I'm interested in specifics, and that's why I'm asking here. We have a lot of military folks and a lot of pilots and a lot of engineers on this site that can answer a pretty basic question I have about this video:

Approximately how far away from the target is the gunner and his helicopter?

It may be impossible to tell from a still, since we are not given the focal length of the camera lens, but given the tiny focal area (about one square block) and the speed of an Apache helicopter while circling (unknown to me) and the possible radius of its path, I'd like to know how far away and how high the helicopter was from its target.

Would the target even be able to detect it in the sky?

It seems to take quite a while for the helicopter to circle the targeted area, that's why I ask.

You have to be logged in to see the video and/or embed it on Youtube, so I'll post the link:

http://www.collateralmurder.com/


Here are some other links:
Guardian
Reuters Letter FROM the Editor

As a civilian I am totally unable to interpret this video. There's been a lot of chatter about it, but, horrific as it is, I'd like some expert opinions on the subject.

I thought this would be a good place to ask since many of you could calculate this in your head and some of you can give a rough estimate based on real-life personal experience (not necessarily in a combat situation, but as a pilot).

How far away is the gunner from the target here?
How High?
Could the Apache be detected by the victims? Seen? Heard?

What's the perspective?

I think I could answer most, if not all of your questions. But I don't think I should or would.

Why?

In this case ANSWERING these questions REALLY would put people in harms way.

Sorry on that, but I've seen it before. These are technical capability questions and only serve to enhance understanding of the weapons platform. That is not info we want to "Share" on a public forum.

I understand you want to know more about what you are seeing, but seriously, you compromise people in the field by providing information like that.

(So please don't ask any further questions on this)

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I'm not interested in arguments about the morality of the war, or the horrific elements of the video itself, or the justification or denigration of the decisions made that day or anything of that nature.


I think thats all I need to read. What have we come to when judgement, compassion and critically thinking for the benefit of other people becomes a non-sequitur preface. This heinous train of thought makes me wonder why we had Nuremberg War trials- apparently the lesson is lost when your on the winning side. Because 'we' as righteous Americans can never be an abhorrent practitioner of callous murder.

Instead -lets 'technify' this discussion and talk about 'security' -when we are talking about a helicopter gunship shooting at people.

This is beyond disturbing.

[GRG55]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I had watched it a day ago and forgotten when I posted on "azimuth limit" above. What you say sounds right. So ... perhaps "azimuth limit" is supposed to mean what I said (gun doesn't swing that far) but perhaps that error showed up when it shouldn't have, due to some computer glitch as you suggest. Beats me. All I know is what I read in the newspaper my google search results.

1. The gun is mounted on the underside of the helicopter and I would guess that the gunsight is able to be trained across a wider azimuth [360 deg?] than the gun itself may be able to be fired, the latter limit perhaps due to putting the helicopter itself at risk [by risking damage to the tail rotor or other parts of the helicopter structure]. And I would further guess that the firing azimuth varies depending on the gun elevation required to maintain the target, and this will change as the helicopter banks steeply and turns tightly in a combat situation...and that might be what surprised the gunner.
2. The helicopter would seem to be quite some distance away since none of the people on the ground appeared to hear it, notice it or look up at it. Further, the people in the van that arrived later also didn't seem to be paying any attention to anything in the sky either. The gun apparently has an effective range of 1.5 km and a maximum range of 4.5 km.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

How far away is the gunner from the target here?
How High?
Could the Apache be detected by the victims? Seen? Heard?

What's the perspective?

From wiki the range of the AH-64's 30mm cannon (M230) is up to 4.5km.

The muzzle velocity of the M230 is 800m/sec, hence it is fair to say that the AH64 was quite far away due to the delay between when the pilots discuss openning fire and when the bullets impact the targets.

[flintlock]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I noticed quite a delay from the sound of firing until the impact. I'd guess 500m+ range, probably more. Of course audio is often out of sync on these type videos.

As far as the azimuth warning, could have to do with the relation between the aiming system and the gun itself. These things are notoriously finicky weapons if I recall.

[flintlock]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

Doesn't this belong in Rant and Rave? :confused:

[snakela]

Re: Reuters Wikileaks News: Need Some Perspective

I'm not interested in arguments about the morality of the war, or the horrific elements of the video itself, or the justification or denigration of the decisions made that day or anything of that nature.


I think thats all I need to read. What have we come to when judgement, compassion and critically thinking for the benefit of other people becomes a non-sequitur preface. This heinous train of thought makes me wonder why we had Nuremberg War trials- apparently the lesson is lost when your on the winning side. Because 'we' as righteous Americans can never be an abhorrent practitioner of callous murder.

Instead -lets 'technify' this discussion and talk about 'security' -when we are talking about a helicopter gunship shooting at people.

This is beyond disturbing.

Q: How do you get away with war crimes?
A: Win