Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

[Starving Steve]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Yes, Steve, you need to study the historical context so that you will understand that because the West was concerned that its supply of the most critical natural resource not be cut off, and because it intervened in another's country's politics to keep a hostile group from gaining control of that resource and potentially using it as leverage against us, we have no right to complain about what Islamic fundamentalists might do now.

You can keep the proper perspective in mind more easily if you remember a few basic things: the West is no better than anyplace else; Americans, and especially American soldiers, are usually bloodthirsty jingoists who care only about money and empire and not about other people; and "unfettered capitalism" is the main cause of problems in the world.

So next time you feel angry about some atrocity committed by muslim terrorists, just remember the historical context and you'll see how we really had it coming.

I could NOT disagree with you more:

The Muslem World owes the West, especially Britain and America. We built the Middle East, and without us, the Middle East would still be in the poverty and tyranny of the 10th Century, and the Middle East would not have one drop of oil nor one gram of gold nor one human right to enjoy.

The Shah of Iran was too democratic and too nice. He should have hung every last Islamo-fascist and left them hanging in downtown Tehran so that the entire Islamic World would have something to remember. Then we would have peace now.

[metalman]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

traffic stop turns into a civilian combat situation. example of failure to shoot first, ask questions later...

warning... graphic. police officer murdered.

http://policelink.monster.com/videos...yle-dinkheller

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

I could NOT disagree with you more:

The Muslem World owes the West, especially Britain and America. We built the Middle East, and without us, the Middle East would still be in the poverty and tyranny of the 10th Century, and the Middle East would not have one drop of oil nor one gram of gold nor one human right to enjoy.

The Shah of Iran was too democratic and too nice. He should have hung every last Islamo-fascist and left them hanging in downtown Tehran so that the entire Islamic World would have something to remember. Then we would have peace now.

I was being sarcastic Steve.

I should have put a tag at the bottom. I guess it sounded sarcastic to me but might sound like what a progressive would actually say.

[marvenger]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

humans are amazing. That officer didn't want to kill anyone and he died for his beliefs. He probably shouldn't have been a police officer and was unprepared for the situation, but he died for his beliefs.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

traffic stop turns into a civilian combat situation. example of failure to shoot first, ask questions later...

warning... graphic. police officer murdered.

http://policelink.monster.com/videos...yle-dinkheller

An army representing a nation and acting in a foreign country cannot possibly be compared to police work.

[metalman]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

An army representing a nation and acting in a foreign country cannot possibly be compared to police work.

not so, my friend.

a guy points a camera with a 3 ft long telephoto lens at the copters hovering a mile away to get a shot of them.

the guys in the copters think he's got an rpg after they see men nearby with what look like ak47s on them.

they are worried about their guys who are headed that way in bradleys.

many of their friends have been killed. if they get killed by the guys on the ground, it's blood on their hands.

the guys in the copters shoot. they are relieved... they have saved their friends.

now they are committed to the decision that the men in that group are bad guys. all of the decisions they make after that follow from that commitment. there's no turning back.

a van pulls up to help the wounded. in the context of the now irrevocable decision, the guys in the van are helping the bad guys... that makes them bad guys.

shoot them.

in the officer video the difference is this... the officer is close to the threat. there's no copter full of officers hovering far away & watching out for the officer on the ground. he's on his own.

but what if there was a copter full of officers hovering far away & watching out for the officer on the ground? what do you think they'd do if they saw the guy reach back into his truck (& they had the gear to shoot accurately from that distance)?

blam. blam, blam... & today they'd be heros & the 23 yr old officer will still be with us.

but what if the guy went into his truck & blam, blam, blam & it turned out he was reaching for a pack of smokes? now the officers in the copter are murderers.

get it?

my other point... the screams of terror & pain we hear from the dying police officer in the police video are no different than those of the men shot by the soldiers in the iraq video.

if metalman ran the world, every time a soldier died, a small bag of shit stained bloody limbs & guts goes to every address of every war supporter, & a 1 min. recording of screams of agony & death plays on npr every night.

kinda takes the romance out of it.

but then who'd sign up for the benefits?

[chr5648]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

According to the military report courtesy of the zerohedge website there were 2 rpgs found after the firefight and a few ak-47's, exact stats are in the report. I only skimmed it.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/us-...massacre-video

I was watching the US BBC broadcast and some analyst said the 2 journalists decided to hang out with some insurgents to see what there life was out. I don't know how good that source is and what credibility the analyst has.

Theres probably even more to this story than what is being told.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

not so, my friend.

a guy points a camera with a 3 ft long telephoto lens at the copters hovering a mile away to get a shot of them.

the guys in the copters think he's got an rpg after they see men nearby with what look like ak47s on them.

they are worried about their guys who are headed that way in bradleys.

many of their friends have been killed. if they get killed by the guys on the ground, it's blood on their hands.

the guys in the copters shoot. they are relieved... they have saved their friends.

Saved them from what? A photo shoot and the associated picture in Vanity Fair? Or perhaps an RPG?

My point is this however: if you a hovering in an Apache and stand ready to shoot 30mm anti-tank rounds from a few kms away to unsuspecting human beings while filming the whole thing to boot, better be sure it is the later.

now they are committed to the decision that the men in that group are bad guys. all of the decisions they make after that follow from that commitment. there's no turning back.

a van pulls up to help the wounded. in the context of the now irrevocable decision, the guys in the van are helping the bad guys... that makes them bad guys.

shoot them.

I find such statement quite appalling.

I am sure you realize that it is your weakest and less defensible argument if simply because no further info or "context" is needed as some have argued (unlike my point above).

I am sorry to say, but it is also I believe a statement supporting war crimes under the Geneva convention.

in the officer video the difference is this... the officer is close to the threat. there's no copter full of officers hovering far away & watching out for the officer on the ground. he's on his own.

but what if there was a copter full of officers hovering far away & watching out for the officer on the ground? what do you think they'd do if they saw the guy reach back into his truck (& they had the gear to shoot accurately from that distance)?

blam. blam, blam... & today they'd be heros & the 23 yr old officer will still be with us.

but what if the guy went into his truck & blam, blam, blam & it turned out he was reaching for a pack of smokes? now the officers in the copter are murderers.

get it?

I do not think so. Here is why:

The fate of the cop - despite being preventable and unfortunate - will not foster acts of desperation such as a for example a young man/woman blowing itself up in a Disney Land crowd.

my other point... the screams of terror & pain we hear from the dying police officer in the police video are no different than those of the men shot by the soldiers in the iraq video.

if metalman ran the world, every time a soldier died, a small bag of shit stained bloody limbs & guts goes to every address of every war supporter, & a 1 min. recording of screams of agony & death plays on npr every night.

kinda takes the romance out of it.

but then who'd sign up for the benefits?

I think we finally agree on a point.

[D-Mack]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

Where did they get this CFR guy from?

[Rajiv]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

For those interested in the psychology of "following orders" I suggest that they get acquainted with the Milgram experiments

The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychologyexperiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, which measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.

The experiments began in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of German Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised his psychological study to answer the question: “Was it that Eichmann and his accomplices in the Holocaust had mutual intent, in at least with regard to the goals of the Holocaust?” In other words, “Was there a mutual sense of morality among those involved?” Milgram’s testing suggested that it could have been that the millions of accomplices were merely following orders, despite violating their deepest moral beliefs.


You can watch an outstanding video, including some original footage, about the experiment.

Milgram Experiment

See also“The Situation of Stanley Milgram’s Obedience Experiments,” “Milgram Replicated on French TV – ‘The Game of Death’,” “A Shocking Situation,” “Zimbar do on Milgram and Obedience – Part I,” “The Case for Obedience,” “Replicating Milgram’s Obedience Experiment – Yet Again,” “Jonestown (The Situation of Evil) Revisited,” “Milgram Remake,” and “The Milgram Experiment Today?.”

Also the Stanford Prison Experiment