Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

[Minion]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Guys, it seems war is not fun. Who knows why soldiers choose this career but it seems pretty hard. Every ex-marine I met showed signs of being hardened by constant "training". They are trained to kill, that's the reality.

It's bad and it's a part of human nature. And just being inside a low flying helicopter is pretty stressful. I guess I'm just saying, if you've never been in the fight, how would you know what you would do?

[Slimprofits]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

It's weird how we can watch the same video and come away with very different impressions.

It seems to me that the aircrew mistakenly identified camera equipment as weapons, and then took out the van under the assumption that (a) the initial targets were combatants, and (b) that those rendering assistance to the initial targets were connected in some way to the first group and were also combatants.

I don't think I would necessarily have concluded that the initial group was hostile, just because they were carrying 'weapons'. However, I probably would have engaged the group after seeing the guy peering out from behind the corner of the building, making the same assumption that the soldiers made -- that the fellow crouching behind the building was about to engage them with an RPG.

Firing on the van rendering assistance to the wounded doesn't seem legitimate to me. I don't know what rules of engagement were in force, but that's too close to firing upon medical personnel for my comfort.

I don't see the comparison to My Lai. The hundreds of Vietnamese civilians killed at My Lai were killed at close range. By the time you're herding people into irrigation ditches, there's not much question as to whether they are armed and attempting to shoot at you. They ain't.

However, I don't agree with the assessment that the soldiers involved are sociopaths or animals -- or at least I don't agree that the assessment they are sociopaths is significant. You have to have low empathy to kill effectively, without suffering grievous psychological harm. The distance provided by the aircraft helps. As Dave Grossman notes in his book On Killing, you need soldiers who are psychologically able to kill, but you have to make sure that the ability to kill is conditional and dependent on lawful context. Determining that the group of targets was hostile may have been a bad call, but having made that call, it's not unhealthy for the soldiers to be eager to kill the 'enemy'. I don't think the soldiers displayed more than the usual bravado. The only thing I question is the decision to engage the van.

EDIT: Okay -- I question other things like the rules of engagement that were in force, and whether the war should have been waged in the first place. I meant the only thing about the events in the video that bothers me is firing on the van.

please never stop posting

[marvenger]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Guys, it seems war is not fun. Who knows why soldiers choose this career but it seems pretty hard

its a tough choice between soldier and debt slave.

how about neither and go Timothy Leary style 'Turn on, tune in, drop out'

Leary explained in his 1983 autobiography Flashbacks: “Turn on’ meant go within to activate your neural and genetic equipment. Become sensitive to the many and various levels of consciousness and the specific triggers that engage them. Drugs were one way to accomplish this end. ‘Tune in’ meant interact harmoniously with the world around you – externalize, materialize, express your new internal perspectives. Drop out suggested an elective, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or unconscious commitments. ‘Drop Out’ meant self-reliance, a discovery of one’s singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean ‘Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity.”

[Slimprofits]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

eat some mushrooms, open your third eye.

[renewable]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Yes war sucks!

And the real villians of the play are not those soldiers (even though they have played their role) but others much much above in the chain of command (the official one -- and the unofficial one -- see the media links in Shishya's post that I referred to in my reply to Ash.

And yes I believe that human beings should not be desensitized so that they can become killers.

The whole western strategy in the Middle East has created terrorism from the start. From Operation Ajax that overthrew a popular Iranian democracy, through the CIA founding of Al-Qaida, to this helicopter incident - all a string of lethal meddling for oil that along the way creates many, many angry victims. It's a wonder that there aren't far more freedom fighters / terrorists.

[mesyn191]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Is it an ambulance as others are assuming, or is it a 'van'.

Why couldn't it have been some people who just saw what went down and try to save the guy? People stop and help others who are in car accidents sometimes, could've been the same thing here.

Too many variables, makes my head spin.

That is the point. If you don't know you're not supposed to shoot.

These guys thought they saw something, shrugged, and shot the hell out of a bunch of innocent people. Then when the gov. found out what went down they tried to suppress knowledge of it.

There are no shades of gray here, its an open and shut case.

And just being inside a low flying helicopter is pretty stressful. I guess I'm just saying, if you've never been in the fight, how would you know what you would do?

There was no fire fight. The 'copter was not being shot at, and those people weren't even brandishing their "weapons" (they had none, just cameras and associated gear), no one was in danger.

It doesn't matter that war is stressful or that the job is hard, if you screw up like that then the hammer is coming down on you, just that simple. If you can't cut the mustard of being a soldier then you don't be a soldier or you be a conscientious objector or whatever they call it. You don't just go around machine gunning people on a WAG.

I agree. I watched the whole video, waiting and waiting for the murderous evil bastard part. Nothing...

They randomly shot a bunch of people who they thought they had weapons, that isn't fishy at all to you? Even in a war zone you're not supposed to do that shit, especially when you know non-combatants are in the area.

Christ! This is war. It was during a tense time. Shit happens. This was NOT murder.

Imagine if some cop saw you driving down the road and saw you with a "suspicious object" and decided to shoot you dead rather than confirm what was going on. Would you still say "shit happens"? How about if your family was in the car and they got shot by accident? Are you still gonna say "shit happens" then?

Yes, I suppose I could re-watch the video and pick it apart. But soldiers do not have that luxury in combat.

There was no shooting going on...this was not a combat situation. They followed and observed the people for 40 min. while nothing happened.

It was straight up murder, and when figured out what they did the gov. ran a cover up so they could win some more "hearts and minds". Bunch of goddamn idiots. All they're doing is making more terrorists by doing shit like this, it'll never end if we just keep randomly shooting people based on guess work alone.

[thisandthat.nowandth]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Does anybody know the technical specifications of the Apache cameras?

I'm not sure about the Apache's optics, but mine are terrible. I think the targeting (range), and flight data (elevation), appear on the TADS display. Does anybody have 15/15 vision , and/or experience with the Apache Target Acquisition and Designation System ?

Curious about the range of that initial engagement.

Sidenote: Wikileaks says military personnel "leaked" this footage. They're called "whistleblowers" for a reason folks.

Sad, very sad.

-joaquin-

[LargoWinch]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Why couldn't it have been some people who just saw what went down and try to save the guy? People stop and help others who are in car accidents sometimes, could've been the same thing here.


That is the point. If you don't know you're not supposed to shoot.

These guys thought they saw something, shrugged, and shot the hell out of a bunch of innocent people. Then when the gov. found out what went down they tried to suppress knowledge of it.

There are no shades of gray here, its an open and shut case.


There was no fire fight. The 'copter was not being shot at, and those people weren't even brandishing their "weapons" (they had none, just cameras and associated gear), no one was in danger.

It doesn't matter that war is stressful or that the job is hard, if you screw up like that then the hammer is coming down on you, just that simple. If you can't cut the mustard of being a soldier then you don't be a soldier or you be a conscientious objector or whatever they call it. You don't just go around machine gunning people on a WAG.


They randomly shot a bunch of people who they thought they had weapons, that isn't fishy at all to you? Even in a war zone you're not supposed to do that shit, especially when you know non-combatants are in the area.


Imagine if some cop saw you driving down the road and saw you with a "suspicious object" and decided to shoot you dead rather than confirm what was going on. Would you still say "shit happens"? How about if your family was in the car and they got shot by accident? Are you still gonna say "shit happens" then?


There was no shooting going on...this was not a combat situation. They followed and observed the people for 40 min. while nothing happened.

It was straight up murder, and when figured out what they did the gov. ran a cover up so they could win some more "hearts and minds". Bunch of goddamn idiots. All they're doing is making more terrorists by doing shit like this, it'll never end if we just keep randomly shooting people based on guess work alone.

This is the best reply of the thread so far.

The sad part is; what does it take to obtain such footage? How many more incidents like this we are unaware of?

Wikileaks is really "doing God's work".

[tombat1913]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Collateral murder is still murder, but I beg to differ from the over all view-point of the British media, especially BBC and the Liberal Govn't in the UK which funds the BBC. Sorry, but I do not have any sympathy for Islamists, especially to-day.

I am ashamed that I stood-by and listened politely at UC Berkeley in 1969 when the future leaders of Iran were invited to speak about ousting the Shah of Iran and setting-up the world's first Islamic Republic. That is what passed for liberalism at UC Berkeley in those days, that plus rock concerts, pot-smoking, and long hair. Sadly, that stupid way of thinking is what still passes for liberalism in Britain to-day.

We have an affair to settle with the Islamists, and I have little sympathy for those who get in our way. That may sound like nazism, but please remember what happened in New York City on Sept 11, 2001.

May I remind kids here who may be reading this and wondering, that liberal Britain was the leading appeaser of Adolf Hitler and the nazis in Europe, even as late as 1938, lest we forget. And America was not much better.

Wow Steve you're really twisted! I mean really fucked up in the head. Yeah, your right! It sounds exactly like nazism.

[flintlock]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

AK yes (Multiple), RPG no, it's a camera with a telephoto lens. (Had to watch it three times to make sure, do you think they got to review it three times.)

Not making judgments either way, but I also thought I saw a telephoto lens. Looks nothing like a RPG. AKs are common on insurgents and non-insurgent alike. This isn't Portland. It's Iraq. People are armed. Photographers have guards, etc. I'd have to know more about the situation to place any blame for sure.

[flintlock]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

This situation is why we need to think very carefully about fighting this kind of war. It puts our military into impossible situations, fighting with weapon systems that were not designed for this type of fighting, with an over reliance on technology.

I don't know if there was a sync issue with the video, or if the audio is correctly synced. If it was correct, then they were firing from quite a distance because the firing and the impact of rounds are quite different. The Apache seems a bit itchy on the trigger, but like others have said, we don't know the whole story.

The military trains soldiers to suppress their humanity. No doubt about it. How else do you get people to kill each other? It's always amazing to me how easily governments can get people to murder each other. Sometimes the warfare is just. More often it is not. But they are able to compartmentalize the job to the point soldiers no longer care about right or wrong, but rather, what their orders are. Or protecting each other. Most wars would never have been fought if the humans could actually make themselves face the reality that they are being used for a purpose other than what they are being told. For the gain of politicians. For power. War is horrible,yet over and over, this is forgotten. How many can even remember why WWI was fought?

[DToM67]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

If you were in Israel you'd find a lot of armed folks - many who cherish their Uzi. No one would call them terrorists or insurgents - because its Israel, and its not an 'active war zone'. It is however a cultural thing... Perhaps in Iraq its also a cultural thing?

Irrespective of culture or not, does anyone here (where folks like to talk about guarding their homes & gold with guns) think an Iraqi might feel a need to be armed? To protect them/their family, as opposed to the rubber-stamp notion (exclusively for killing Americans)? Iraqi's have many good reasons to be armed... and that makes 'coalition' soldiers (rightly) nervous.

If you were a cameraman from a foreign news agency you'd likely need armed guards. The AK's shouldn't = insurgent. There's a bunch of heavily armed mercenaries/contractors employed under the banner of Blackwater or the like. These individuals perform similar function, but somehow, I suspect the killing of armed 'contractors' is different than armed unidentified Iraqis.

The aforementioned police scenario (mesyn191 post #66) isn't quite the same thing. This is war... A Bullshit war of conquest. A war that shouldn't exist. Don't try and justify it! ALL casualties are COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY! it matters not whether Iraqi (so called insurgents) Americans, British, etc.

As for the events of the video. Yeah, there's too much left out to really know what the situation was... BUT What harm could there have been of watching and waiting? The same helicopter which shot these folks could've provided locations of suspected insurgents (armed with AK's/rpg). The Bradley's could have avoided the area entirely, or been prepared... But no... they had to engage:mad:

The cover-up is no surprise. Its just another in a long string... including the use of White Phosphorus.

Makes me ill.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

First, how is this even remotely a financial topic?

I've noticed a tendency over the past couple years for the discussions on iTulip to stray more readily into very partisan political bickering. I've been guilty of some of that myself. I am not the management here, but it seems to me that posting something like this that is clearly just another progressive talking point and has nothing to do with finance at all is inappropriate. There's plenty of sites to go argue about this political stuff.

Having said that, since the topic has been raised, I want to make a few points in defense of the soldiers.

* I don't think our fighting men are just idly helicoptering around Iraq looking for groups of innocent people to butcher for their entertainment. They are professionals with a strong code of military honor and I do not think for a moment that they would shoot people they had reason to believe were just out for a nice stroll down the road. They were actively trying to determine if these men were carrying weapons and posed a threat. You haven't seen the tapes of all the times when the group of men WERE enemy combatants and the shooting was justified. I suspect they look and sound just like that, including the kinds of language the soldiers used. So this is not some "smoking gun" amazing secret tried-to-be-suppressed evidence of war crimes. This looks like standard stuff to me.

* This is what war looks like. Even if those men were actually enemy combatants, people who had murdered innocent civilians and blew up our convoys or what have you, it would be ugly and shocking to see video of them killed. The way our soldiers were talking is the way fighting men talk. I assume it helps them distance themselves emotionally from what is going on. If you object to that, then you object to the very existence of soldiers, and you live in a different world than I do.

This looks like a group of highly-trained professional soldiers operating in war zone, following standard protocol (they requested firing permission), who made a mistake. The mistake may have been avoidable, and it may not have been realistically avoidable. In any case, there is no grounds I see in the tape for these statements about how these are war criminals and psychopaths. Anyone who would say that simply doesn't have a realistic understanding of what it means to fight a war against guerrillas who do not wear uniforms and hide behind civilians. You're living in a fantasy world and are actually helping the terrorists/guerillas by condemning our men for fighting the way they are forced to fight this kind of war. If the enemy put on uniforms and respected the Geneva Conventions this wouldn't happen.

Whether we SHOULD be fighting in Iraq is a separate question.

[renewable]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

First, how is this even remotely a financial topic

Money is the the accepted means for apportioning scarce resources. Please research 'cheap peak oil' and it's financial implications for all of us. Our leaders (USA & UK) deem it appropriate to have spent trillions (and uncounted lives, on both sides) over many decades in an attempt to control the oil resources of the Middle East. The political efforts in addition to the trillions are immense (e.g. the support of the house of Saud). I am quite happy to expand further if you wish?

[Jam]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

AK yes (Multiple), RPG no, it's a camera with a telephoto lens. (Had to watch it three times to make sure, do you think they got to review it three times.)

At 3:45 there is RPG, I think. The object is about 3-ft long, pointed, and appears heavy. I am no expert, but it does look like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rpg-7.jpg. It is carried by the man in white shirt and light-colored pants.
To be sure, when I first saw the video, I didn't notice any weapons--just cameras. And, I was outraged by the events and comments, especially that I didn't see the weapons and thought they were making stuff up just to shoot somebody. However, I have to say now that I am not certain my outrage was not misplaced.