Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

[jtabeb]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Sorry lads, but at 3:48 min/sec AK-47 and RPG clearly visible. AP photographers should not make a habit of hanging out with armed enemy combatants. Me thinks some of this is false outrage. The professional soldiers may appear flippant in their comments, but they are professional. War sucks, but we do it best.

AK yes (Multiple), RPG no, it's a camera with a telephoto lens. (Had to watch it three times to make sure, do you think they got to review it three times.)

[KGW]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Sorry there chewy, but that was not the case. Telephoto lens and camera gear. Professional what? I do seriously hope these pilots got an rpg up there tailpipe at some point. Or at least something similar once back home in their redneck hood.

Let's see, what were they doing there in the first place? Oh yeah, working for a lying, beady-eyed toady and, even worse, Darth Cheney. To achieve a complete misdirection of the numbnuts who pass as citizenry, as to the economic tragedy about to befall them. What else? Oh yeah, Eretz Israel!

Complete idiocy.

Sorry lads, but at 3:48 min/sec AK-47 and RPG clearly visible. AP photographers should not make a habit of hanging out with armed enemy combatants. Me thinks some of this is false outrage. The professional soldiers may appear flippant in their comments, but they are professional. War sucks, but we do it best.

[seanm123]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Might as well as call it a police action.

FYi the bullets fired 30 mm perhaps the DU kind are much bigger than your "tool" and were never meant for this kinda op. The attack helicopter the Apache longbow was designed to fight armored vehicles like tanks, so no "resolution" on the camera of non-combatants (children) required.



President Talabani said just last week "12 million barrels a day." Can you reapeat that please three times already "12 million barrels a day."

One day if you do visit don't be offended is they say welcome to the NEW US strategic petroleum reserve as you arrive in Balad Airport the second busiest airport in the world...

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

They know that if they fuck-up, then their buddies on the ground get it.

I'm guessing that's why they had to take out the van, and if the wounded guy on the ground so much as look cross-eyed at a gun, take him out too.

They needed to be sure that the area was as safe as it could be for the ground guys coming in.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

They still sound like a buch of teenagers with too much testosterone though.

Yeah - a bit of dark humor, some call it gallows humor, is one of the ways that we keep from going crazy.

[seanm123]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Would it be ironic if the DU dust from the 30 mm rounds fired are only airborne for a few minutes after being fired?

[swannmex]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

"Originally Posted by touhy
Sorry lads, but at 3:48 min/sec AK-47 and RPG clearly visible. AP photographers should not make a habit of hanging out with armed enemy combatants. Me thinks some of this is false outrage. The professional soldiers may appear flippant in their comments, but they are professional. War sucks, but we do it best."

And when one of the kids who's family got incinerated as collateral damage finally does set off a dirty bomb in NYC we can all just sit back and say, "Well, war sucks, and now they do it best". What would you do if your family got "lit up" by an occupying force that invaded your country on false pretenses. Hard to imagine isn't it?? Then again maybe not.

[aaron]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

It's weird how we can watch the same video and come away with very different impressions.

It seems to me that the aircrew mistakenly identified camera equipment as weapons, and then took out the van under the assumption that (a) the initial targets were combatants, and (b) that those rendering assistance to the initial targets were connected in some way to the first group and were also combatants.

I don't think I would necessarily have concluded that the initial group was hostile, just because they were carrying 'weapons'. However, I probably would have engaged the group after seeing the guy peering out from behind the corner of the building, making the same assumption that the soldiers made -- that the fellow crouching behind the building was about to engage them with an RPG.

Firing on the van rendering assistance to the wounded doesn't seem legitimate to me. I don't know what rules of engagement were in force, but that's too close to firing upon medical personnel for my comfort.

I don't see the comparison to My Lai. The hundreds of Vietnamese civilians killed at My Lai were killed at close range. By the time you're herding people into irrigation ditches, there's not much question as to whether they are armed and attempting to shoot at you. They ain't.

However, I don't agree with the assessment that the soldiers involved are sociopaths or animals -- or at least I don't agree that the assessment they are sociopaths is significant. You have to have low empathy to kill effectively, without suffering grievous psychological harm. The distance provided by the aircraft helps. As Dave Grossman notes in his book On Killing, you need soldiers who are psychologically able to kill, but you have to make sure that the ability to kill is conditional and dependent on lawful context. Determining that the group of targets was hostile may have been a bad call, but having made that call, it's not unhealthy for the soldiers to be eager to kill the 'enemy'. I don't think the soldiers displayed more than the usual bravado. The only thing I question is the decision to engage the van.

EDIT: Okay -- I question other things like the rules of engagement that were in force, and whether the war should have been waged in the first place. I meant the only thing about the events in the video that bothers me is firing on the van.

I agree. I watched the whole video, waiting and waiting for the murderous evil bastard part. Nothing...

Christ! This is war. It was during a tense time. Shit happens. This was NOT murder.

I had to watch to the end because I was SURE there must be something to this. Perhaps a soldier walked up with his pistol and put a bullet in the guy's face? ... Nope... it ended with soldier running away to save a little girl.

If the van had a red cross on it (or the equivalent symbol), then I could understand THAT being over the top... but all I saw was a black van with guys NOT dressed as medics, taking their guy away.

Yes, I suppose I could re-watch the video and pick it apart. But soldiers do not have that luxury in combat.

[jtabeb]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Would it be ironic if the DU dust from the 30 mm rounds fired are only airborne for a few minutes after being fired?

Apache uses 30MM HEDP, A-10 uses 30MM DU API.

[jtabeb]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

"Originally Posted by touhy
Sorry lads, but at 3:48 min/sec AK-47 and RPG clearly visible. AP photographers should not make a habit of hanging out with armed enemy combatants. Me thinks some of this is false outrage. The professional soldiers may appear flippant in their comments, but they are professional. War sucks, but we do it best."

And when one of the kids who's family got incinerated as collateral damage finally does set off a dirty bomb in NYC we can all just sit back and say, "Well, war sucks, and now they do it best". What would you do if your family got "lit up" by an occupying force that invaded your country on false pretenses. Hard to imagine isn't it?? Then again maybe not.

"The winning move is not to play".

You Can't WIN the hearts and minds of ORPHANS and WIDOWS when you are the one RESPONSIBLE for creating the orphans and widows.

(Ever see this movie called "Munich")

[metalman]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

"Originally Posted by touhy
Sorry lads, but at 3:48 min/sec AK-47 and RPG clearly visible. AP photographers should not make a habit of hanging out with armed enemy combatants. Me thinks some of this is false outrage. The professional soldiers may appear flippant in their comments, but they are professional. War sucks, but we do it best."

And when one of the kids who's family got incinerated as collateral damage finally does set off a dirty bomb in NYC we can all just sit back and say, "Well, war sucks, and now they do it best". What would you do if your family got "lit up" by an occupying force that invaded your country on false pretenses. Hard to imagine isn't it?? Then again maybe not.

this used to say 'i'm with the good guys & i have power & $$$'.



now it says 'i'm a fat, idiot who elects criminals to run my country. i go to war for the criminals-elect to pay off my credit card & tuition bills & call it patriotism'.

[chr5648]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

1) We shouldn't be there in the first place (my opinion)

2) Why couldn't they just wait around and see what was gonna happen, back the helicopter off to get out of RPG range and use the cameras to see whats going on and wait it out. The ground troops also could have waited it out and let the helicopter guys check what was happening.

3) The video has no context it is only a small 17 minute video, shows one point of view and just audio from the helicopter. Theres so many missing pieces, what was happening in the days before, hours before, was the shooting a planned attack or an impulsive attack, who was shot? was it just civilians? Why was no one else around the whole place looks deserted before the shooting a ghost town? Lots of missing pieces, not enough information to make a valid opinion on this incident.


I'm not defending this but it reaks of so many other major topics where you are led to make opinions on little information.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Christ! This is war. It was during a tense time. Shit happens. This was NOT murder.

aaron, can you show me again the part where RPGs and AKs are being fired?

What I saw is a weapon system miles away killing human beings on the ground who were unaware of its presence.

Tense time indeed.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

1) We shouldn't be there in the first place (my opinion)

2) Why couldn't they just wait around and see what was gonna happen, back the helicopter off to get out of RPG range and use the cameras to see whats going on and wait it out. The ground troops also could have waited it out and let the helicopter guys check what was happening.

3) The video has no context it is only a small 17 minute video, shows one point of view and just audio from the helicopter. Theres so many missing pieces, what was happening in the days before, hours before, was the shooting a planned attack or an impulsive attack, who was shot? was it just civilians? Why was no one else around the whole place looks deserted before the shooting a ghost town? Lots of missing pieces, not enough information to make a valid opinion on this incident.


I'm not defending this but it reaks of so many other major topics where you are led to make opinions on little information.

Perhaps, but what about the van?

[chr5648]

Re: Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians

Perhaps, but what about the van?

Was the van going to be there regardless of the shooting or not, or was the van called in after the shooting?

Is it an ambulance as others are assuming, or is it a 'van'.

Too many variables, makes my head spin.

I prefer to sit back and see this thread turn into a cluster f*ck of human cognitive confabulation and rationalization.

enjoy!


P.S. I still think they should of waited from a distance and seen what the van and the people were going to do. The van could of led the army to a terrorist hide out or hospital, or some other place.