Goodbye, Mr Roberts

[Master Shake]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

There must be a better way to say this. As you can see from Master Shake's response above, the word "emotion" makes it all too easy for readers to dismiss your insight.

My sense is that what I usually call "emotion" is distinct from the "generally accepted notions" that I unconsciously assume as true (due to my natural herding instincts.)

I suspect that the psycho-dynamic structure of the mind has more elements in a more complex structure than just "emotion" vs "rational thought." I associate emotions with the middle brain; cats and up have emotions, though they don't herd so well. Concepts of generally accepted truth, private doubts thereof, ones inner "self" dialogue, empathy for what others are feeling, shame and guilt, ... these are require various part of the higher brain.

(Granted, testing any such theory for correctness by the criteria of whether Master Shake agrees is a poor test .)

Herr Cow, I value your insights and opinions on all matters save this one, where you have chosen to abandon logic and rationality. But don't take my word for it: what the fuck do I know anyway. However, people like James Randi and the folks at The Skeptical Inquirer are Popperian empirical thinkers and they have examined all the various conspiracy theories and pseudo-scientific "logic" put forth by various "Truthers" and found them wanting.

[FRED]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

Moved to Rant & Rave due to Truther discussion.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

Herr Cow, I value your insights and opinions on all matters save this one, where you have chosen to abandon logic and rationality. But don't take my word for it: what the fuck do I know anyway. However, people like James Randi and the folks at The Skeptical Inquirer are Popperian empirical thinkers and they have examined all the various conspiracy theories and pseudo-scientific "logic" put forth by various "Truthers" and found them wanting.

The presence of a group or site advocating one side of a controversy does not demonstrate that those who disagree have abandoned logic and rationality.

The use of insulting put-downs and quotation marks such as in:

the various conspiracy theories and pseudo-scientific "logic" put forth by various "Truthers"

does not add credibility to your position either.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

Moved to Rant & Rave due to Truther discussion.

I object to the use of the word "Truther" in this disparaging sense, especially from those in positions of respect and authority. Such use helps perpetuate the poisonous atmosphere surrounding discussions of the events of 9/11.

Somewhat in the manner that downtrodden races and religions ask not to be referred to using slurs, I would prefer that the management of iTulip.com refer to this as the "9/11" discussion or some other such neutral term.

Thank-you.

[jtabeb]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

Moved to Rant & Rave due to Truther discussion.

See, EFFECTIVE, isn't it.

The Discussion was THE RESULT of the MATERIAL in the ARTICLE, FRED!


Why didn't you move it when it was posted then?

[skyson]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

I object to the use of the word "Truther" in this disparaging sense, especially from those in positions of respect and authority. Such use helps perpetuate the poisonous atmosphere surrounding discussions of the events of 9/11.

Somewhat in the manner that downtrodden races and religions ask not to be referred to using slurs, I would prefer that the management of iTulip.com refer to this as the "9/11" discussion or some other such neutral term.

Thank-you.

Long before this, I have found that the other side of the debate table would just eventually resorts to name calling.

This is just sad. It appears to me, that the majority percentage of citizens of the once great nation called "USA" have degenerated to a whole bunch of rednecks who are only capable of chanting slogans, and devoid of the ability of independent reasoning. My respect and aspiration to this great country and the idealism it holds in my early years(80s-90s) are replaced with despair and disgust. What a rude awakening!

If I am being called "truther" because I am pursuing the truth, then I will be proud of being one.

Fortunately, there might be still a glimpse of hope in America, for there are still those who are not afraid of speaking up, and go against the current. Here is one fine example:

Joel S. Hirschhorn, BS Metallurgical Engineering, MS Metallurgical Engineering, PhD Materials Engineering – Senior Staff Member, Congressional Office of Technology Assessment 1978 - 1990. Testified more than 50 times before Congress on technology, science, and environmental issues. Former Director of Environment, Energy and Natural Resources, National Governors Association. Dr. Hirschhorn has been a consultant to industrial and chemical companies, DOE laboratories, state governments, and public interest organizations. Professor of Metallurgical Engineering, University of Wisconsin, Madison 1965 - 1978. Co-founder of Friends of the Article V Convention at www.foavc.org. Member, Board of Directors, National Foundation for Environmental Education. Member, Board of Directors, Sustainability Now! Author of more than 150 papers, articles, guest editorials, and book chapters on environmental science and technology. Author of Delusional Democracy: Fixing the Republic Without Overthrowing the Government (2007), Sprawl Kills (2005), New Community Design to the Rescue (2001), Growing pains: Quality of Life in the New Economy (2000), Prosperity without Pollution (1991), Materials Science (1975), Introduction to Powder Metallurgy (1969).

He wrote this article - 9/11 Truth Manifesto:

For evidence that America’s political system is a criminal conspiracy, open your mind to piles of new analyses that prove beyond doubt that the official 9/11 story is a lie. Years of a bipartisan cover-up of 9/11 lies make it much more than one horrendous past event. It endures in infamy as a symptom of a corrupt and dishonest government.

Every day we pay for what 9/11 and its cover-up have burdened us with, including the costly Iraq war and the erosion of the rule of law and constitutional rights. Power elites have suppressed the truth because they fear what will happen when the public understands that 9/11 was not accomplished solely by foreign terrorists.

Technically sound analyses of what happened at the World Trade Center have unequivocally shown that the official 9/11 story is not credible (www.ae911truth.org). Truth seekers have met their burden of proof; the government has not met theirs. Simply put, controlled demolition brought down three buildings, not fires from the impact of planes on two of them. Not only was the US government involved, it has also conspired to hide the truth from the public. Why? Republican and Democratic politicians and power elites fear that 9/11 truth will remove what little public trust remains in government. The truth will produce political instability, perhaps breaking the two-party stranglehold on our political system. And it should. And it must, if we are to finally obtain the deep political reforms our nation desperately needs.

The decline started before George W. Bush and his criminal co-conspirators accelerated it with their blatant disregard for the rule of law and our Constitution. It will continue, even with a Democratic administration, unless we reform our political system. We must remind Americans that our nation was born in an insurrectionist, populist rebellion against political tyranny – and that 9/11 teaches us that we need a Second American Revolution. We must destroy the domestic Axis of Arrogance of our plutocracy more than fear a foreign Axis of Evil. How?

A vast nationwide grassroots 9/11 truth movement is ignored by the mainstream news media. Its success will be the catalyst for renewing American democracy. It will produce a shock wave that rattles the brains of all Americans: Shock therapy from a truth so powerful and unsettling that Americans finally see the decline of American democracy that allowed 9/11 and its cover-up.

Make no mistake, the 9/11 truth movement holds the future of the United States. We are not subversive “conspiracy theorists” or enablers of foreign terrorism. We are patriotic warriors working to nullify group delusion produced by government propaganda. Dozens of books and websites reveal countless technical contradictions and inconsistencies with the official government 9/11 story and the laws of physics. The weight of the evidence supports one painful verdict: Our federal government played a role, probably through a large “black op.” The “why” is obvious: To justify an unjust war to serve corporate interests and greed.

Here is our opportunity: To make 9/11 the tipping point for American democracy renewal. Our enemies fear that if this movement succeeds, their plutocratic, elitist cabal – the Axis of Arrogance – run by the two-party duopoly will collapse. Corruption keeps our political system stable – truth must clean it up. Instability is the necessary price for restoring democracy.

....................

We confront more than power elites. There is psychological resistance of millions of Americans to painful 9/11 truth – a shameful, “unthinkable” truth about their elected government. Even if they have doubts about the official story, they instinctively recoil and erect mental barriers to block out the full truth. They want to keep believing that they live in a great democracy. They want to believe that when the Bush administration is replaced our democracy will be in good shape again. Hard to accept that 9/11 truth could not have been suppressed this long without the tacit or explicit approval of Democratic politicians and power brokers.

It is as if we are telling children that their parents are mass murderers. Distracted, time-poor, depressed, political disengaged, cynical and insecure Americans do not want to hear that their government had a hand in 9/11. That for years their two-party-controlled government has blatantly lied to them. That thousands of good Americans have died and been terribly injured in a war propped up by the false-flag 9/11 fiction. In sum, that despite elections a vast criminal conspiracy has been so successful for so long. Such thoughts hurt.

Also, political instability is scary to ordinary Americans. But stability based on corruption and lies is destructive. Only when Americans see 9/11 as a political attack (by Americans on Americans) – not solely a terrorist attack (by foreigners on Americans) – will they understand that revealing 9/11 truth must lead to major political reforms. Instability is the cost of democracy renewal.

There are many more.

My salute to them - they are the real TRUTHERS.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

See, EFFECTIVE, isn't it.

I doubt that those to whom you address this remark are ready to hear it - sadly.

[aaron]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

There must be video of missiles hitting the top of a building, and the building later collapsing. If a missile can topple a tall building, I would be convinced that very large planes could too.

Anybody?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

This is just sad. It appears to me, that the majority percentage of citizens of the once great nation called "USA" have degenerated to a whole bunch of rednecks who are only capable of chanting slogans, and devoid of the ability of independent reasoning. My respect and aspiration to this great country and the idealism it holds in my early years(80s-90s) are replaced with despair and disgust. What a rude awakening!

Yes, it is just sad. I have supported and defended this once great nation for over half a century and so have my ancestors since before the Revolutionary War. The poisoning of the hearts, minds and bodies of my fellow Americans continues and appears to be succeeding.

If I am being called "truther" because I am pursuing the truth, then I will be proud of being one.

I am honored to stand beside you.

He wrote this article - 9/11 Truth Manifesto:

Good article - thanks.

[Ghent12]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

And so somehow the subject is now taboo?

The congressional testimony that our government now assassinates its own citizens doesn't bother you at all? Don't you don't think people might want to know about something like that...what their government is becoming. This is a fellow who was a professional journalist for decades before his desire to pursue certain stories got him blacklisted from mainstream media.

Why bother silencing him if he is not credible?

Your post is illogical and ripe with emotion to the point of being discarded with but the slightest of critical analysis.

1) Concern over assassination of US citizens by our own government is unrelated to the insane theories espoused by the 9/11 Truth Movement, including but not limited to holographic cruise missiles instead of planes striking the WTC, the use of tons the most exotic explosive in history, the hijacked planes landing and then decoys (remote control or otherwise) flying into the targets, and etc.

2) Exploitation of an opportunity never proves who is responsible for the opportunity itself. The 9/11 Truth Movement offers the motive of invading Afghanistan and Iraq and little else as conclusive proof of the government's involvement or complicity in the attack. This does not follow. If you think anyone was itching for the opportunity to invade Afghanistan, then I would love to see your reasoning for it. The 9/11 Truth Movement only started to pick up steam when the warmongering over Iraq was taking place, yet President Bush taking political advantage of the tragedy of 9/11 to invade Iraq does not provide any evidence whatsoever as to who was behind 9/11.

[skyson]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

There must be video of missiles hitting the top of a building, and the building later collapsing. If a missile can topple a tall building, I would be convinced that very large planes could too.

Anybody?

Of course, I will be convinced too. Only if the three buildings were merely "toppled". No, they did not do that. They literally disintegrated into three piles of dust/debris.

Take a look at this pictures/videos:

http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/index.html
http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/...collapses.html

more interesting info:

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

1) Concern over assassination of US citizens by our own government is unrelated to the insane theories espoused by the 9/11 Truth Movement,

There is one important relation, and you know it.

Both are, if true, evidence that the U.S. government is messed up.

And by the way, the presence of some 9/11 theories that you consider insane does not discredit all but the official 9/11 theory. However publishing insane theories is an affective propaganda tool sometimes used to discredit the truth.

2) Exploitation of an opportunity never proves who is responsible for the opportunity itself.

You present a paper tiger. No one here said that exploiting an opportunity by itself proved responsibility. The usual crime scene detective looks for Means, Motive and Opportunity. It takes the presence of all three to start building a good case.

[Spartacus]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

A good prosecutor needs none of these

You present a paper tiger. No one here said that exploiting an opportunity by itself proved responsibility. The usual crime scene detective looks for Means, Motive and Opportunity. It takes the presence of all three to start building a good case.

All he needs is poor people to knuckle under the pressure.

Just ask Nifong & the Duke Lacrosse Team (the exception that proves the rule).

Or the McMartin pre school.

Or all the people jailed based on "recovered memories" with no physical proof whatsoever.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

A good prosecutor needs none of these

True I suppose, if by "good" you mean "affective even if immoral."

But what that has to do with the rest of this thread is unclear to me.

In other words: Your point is?

[Spartacus]

Re: Goodbye, Mr Roberts

It's a side issue, not meant to generate a new sub-thread

True I suppose, if by "good" you mean "affective even if immoral."

But what that has to do with the rest of this thread is unclear to me.

In other words: Your point is?

the wording of your post tweaked one of my "issues"