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  • inflation vs deflation

    The usual food fights over inflation and deflation drive me nuts. Too many variant meanings for words are used, with too little good humored awareness of the other sides meanings.

    At the same time, the apparent contradictions between collapsing debt and increasing money supply have confused me.

    Moreover my tin-foil-hat doom-and-gloomer side has been bracing for this collapse of debt paper bubbles to continue down, taking out the underlying monetary system as well. Mad Max Time. The time when wolves feed on cows, which would be a dangerous time for yours truly.

    The whole thing has been playing out in my mind for a couple of years now, as if I had just walked into a rumble in a prison, unable yet to determine who was on which side, who started it, or who would likely be the ones to finish it.

    ===

    It seems clear to me now what will happen.

    The debt bubble will continue collapsing.

    But most national monetary systems will hold.

    In prosperous times, governments buy our affections. In difficult times, they steal them at the point of a gun and by oppressive surveillance and regulation.

    The monetary system holds so long as the government holds.

    It is abundantly clear (shown once again Sunday with the passage of the so-called Health Care bill in the U.S.) that the major national governments hold. Parties, candidates and scathing cartoons will come and go. But the appetite of the major national governments world-wide for such tyranny as they deem necessary to maintain control is more than adequate to that task.

    Therefore the monetary systems of the major nations hold.

    So we have debt fueled bubble collapse, answered with increases in money printing and tyranny.

    This will drive up the nominal prices of essential commodities, goods and services. This will drive up the nominal prices of the stocks of companies who are still more funded by doing business in such commodities, goods and services. It will devastate the stocks of many companies that are too dependent on debt paper.

    This will drive up the nominal price of gold. Here I am echo'ing the thoughts of one of my favorite commentators, the One Handed Economist, Howard Katz, in his latest subscription letter. Gold goes up, in his experience and forecast, when "inflation", as seen in the nominal prices of the essential goods and services (e.g. food, gas and rent), rises strongly.

    Such inflation will happen. The sharp eyed here have been seeing it for a year already. But the average man in the street is not yet hoarse from screaming in agony over the pains of inflation in the prices he pays daily. Therefore gold has not yet peaked (it's not even close to the peak.)

    Our governments will not wimp out. Their inner tyrant will prevail. Hence the monetary systems will prevail (modulo a quite possible Bretton Woods III recasting of the world's inter-national reserve currency.)

    Summary Prediction
    :
    Governments will continue printing, daily prices of food and gas will rise strongly, and gold will shoot much, much higher. Later on, as gold peaks, this will drive speculation in gold mining stocks and in silver, both of which will peak later.
    jtabeb - here I come .

    I am in that long line of people expecting another down draft in the debt paper fueled asset and derivative markets. Yes, I know, Mr. Market despises long lines. Oh well. With this down draft, the tin-foil-hat side of me expects another excuse (a "convenient" crisis) to increase government tyranny. One or two smaller governments will likely collapse, by way of justifying the increasing iron grip of larger governments. This will not be good for my blood pressure. Oh well. But it will mean that the monetary system holds, for the essential basis for a monetary system is political power, and we are still a long way from "Peak Tyranny."
    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

  • #2
    Re: inflation vs deflation

    jtabeb - here I come .
    Timing matters. One must understand over what time period one is investing - minutes, months, decades, ... I'm expecting to be further into gold for a few years (wild guess) so that means I can expect to spend a few months building the position.

    Limit orders and stop losses are useful. Not only should one consider stop losses on currently held positions that one expects to continue holding, but also one should use limits orders:
    • buy when the price happens to fall surprisingly low, and
    • sell when the price happens to rise surprisingly high.

    So I currently have limit buy orders on CEF and GTU to buy them when they are weak. When one of these orders triggers, I will sometimes also follow up with an order to APMEX for more physical gold or silver as well. These orders should be filled over the next several months, and I may shift my price targets upward (willing to pay a higher price) if I need to chase the market upward.

    When the time comes to sell, I will place limit sell orders, to trigger sales on stronger than usual high prices.
    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: inflation vs deflation

      Hmmm... debt deflation, monetization of the debt, inflation in real goods and commodities, the end of the dollar as the world's reserve currency, fears about a 30s-style reprise of totalitarian governments (albeit more pronounced)...

      I'm sure I've heard all this before. Wish I could remember where! ;)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: inflation vs deflation

        Originally posted by WDCRob View Post
        Hmmm... debt deflation, monetization of the debt, inflation in real goods and commodities, the end of the dollar as the world's reserve currency, fears about a 30s-style reprise of totalitarian governments (albeit more pronounced)...

        I'm sure I've heard all this before. Wish I could remember where! ;)
        ... probably on some website somewhere . That's the beauty of the web; all possible prognostications are to be found somewhere.
        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: inflation vs deflation

          The bubble is not just in debt paper, but also in derivatives and in promises of future benefits or reimbursements such as Social Security and Medicare in the U.S. and retirement plans in many localities and nations. All such will lose real value or default in some fashion or other.

          The crisis will continue to be used by the most powerful to accumulate real wealth, such as land and resources, and various tolls, tariffs and taxes on future economic activity (such as by using the "opportunity" of stressed governments to "privatize" infrastructure for short term government gains and long term corporate profit.)

          My key interesting observation here, besides the obvious, is that the increased tyranny is an indication that the central governments and their corporate alter-egos retain and accumulate power, which is a key indicator that the monetary system (adapted to the benefit of those best able to leverage the crises) stands. Currency is not fiat paper; it is fiat power. The bubble in debt and derivative paper continues to collapse, but national currencies adapt, shifting property and promises to the strongest.
          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: inflation vs deflation

            Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
            Hence the monetary systems will prevail (modulo a quite possible Bretton Woods III recasting of the world's inter-national reserve currency.)
            The Big Decision Point in the gold trade will be when or whether the replacement "world reserve monetary base" includes a strong gold element.

            If it does (as FOFOA expects - cf. fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/03/synthesis.html) then gold's strength is rebased at a higher level.

            If not, then gold declines again, once such a new monetary regime solidifies.

            It will take another Big Crisis or two before these considerations apply.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: inflation vs deflation

              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
              The bubble is not just in debt paper, but also in derivatives and in promises of future benefits or reimbursements such as Social Security and Medicare in the U.S. and retirement plans in many localities and nations. All such will lose real value or default in some fashion or other.

              The crisis will continue to be used by the most powerful to accumulate real wealth, such as land and resources, and various tolls, tariffs and taxes on future economic activity (such as by using the "opportunity" of stressed governments to "privatize" infrastructure for short term government gains and long term corporate profit.)

              My key interesting observation here, besides the obvious, is that the increased tyranny is an indication that the central governments and their corporate alter-egos retain and accumulate power, which is a key indicator that the monetary system (adapted to the benefit of those best able to leverage the crises) stands. Currency is not fiat paper; it is fiat power. The bubble in debt and derivative paper continues to collapse, but national currencies adapt, shifting property and promises to the strongest.
              Your on a roll “Bos” don’t stop now.

              http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...21151#poststop
              bill 11-30-07, 07:24 AM
              The speculators will not be helped. This is cattle separation time only the ones that have the highest percentage of payment survival will be saved the rest are hamburger.
              http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...5088#post75088
              bill 02-07-09, 11:57 AM
              I would not conclude government asset purchasing as a price support strategy, although it will have its impact. Asset control and asset liquidation using government rather than open market participation is what we have. More Government money from feared tax payers and pork Politian’s will be approve and delivered on demand. Government will continue to purchase assets even as markets get worse thus loosing more value on already acquired assets, AIG comes to mind. At some point the pressure of government owning to many assets will have to be addressed , thus unloading assets to healthy purchasers (or politically correct) and having tax payers take the loss.
              http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122156561931242905.html
              Sapiens 11-30-07, 07:43 AM
              bill, I have the grill ready. Except, I don't seem to have an appetite worthy of the size of the whole World. oh, chucks

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: inflation vs deflation

                Originally posted by bill View Post
                Your on a roll “Bos” don’t stop now.
                Nah -- I've milked this one for all it's worth for now.
                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: inflation vs deflation

                  Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                  Nah -- I've milked this one for all it's worth for now.
                  Perhaps you should concentrate on the udder thread then.
                  It's Economics vs Thermodynamics. Thermodynamics wins.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: inflation vs deflation

                    A partial answer for you is here in this article - If The Money Supply Is Exploding Why Are We Not Seeing Rampant Inflation?

                    The U.S. money supply has been expanding at an absolutely unprecedented rate. So why are we not experiencing rampant inflation? Why is the U.S. dollar not falling through the floor? Well, the truth is that all of this new money has gotten into the U.S. financial system but it is not getting into the hands of U.S. businesses and consumers. In fact, even though the money supply is exploding, U.S. banks have dramatically decreased lending. This has brought us to a very bizarre financial situation as a nation.

                    What we have seen is the U.S. government shovel massive amounts of cash into the U.S. financial system and then watch as the big banks sit on that cash and refuse to lend it. The biggest banks in the U.S. reduced their collective small business lending balance by another 1 billion dollars in November 2009. That drop was the seventh monthly decline in a row. In fact, in 2009 as a whole U.S. banks posted their sharpest decline in lending since 1942.

                    So all of this money that the U.S. government pumped into the financial system has been doing American businesses and consumers very little good. That is why we can have a vastly increased money supply (as you can see from the chart below) and very little inflation.



                    So if the banks are not lending the money to the American people, what are they doing with it? One of the things they are doing with it is buying U.S. government debt. As you can see from the chart below, U.S. banks have cut business lending by approximately 350 billion dollars since early 2009 and they have purchased approximately 300 billion dollars worth of U.S. Treasury securities.



                    So instead of loaning money to American businesses and consumers who desperately need it, a ton of this new money is being used to pump up yet another bubble. This time the bubble is in U.S. Treasuries. Asia Times recently described how this trillion-dollar carry trade in U.S. government securities works....

                    Remarkably, the most aggressive buyers of US government debt during the past several months have been global banks domiciled in London and the Cayman Islands. They borrow at 20 basis points (a fifth of a percentage point) and buy Treasury securities paying 1% to 3%, depending on maturity.

                    This is the famous "carry trade", by which banks or hedge funds borrow short-term at a very low rate and lend medium- or long-term at a higher rate. This works as long as short-tem rates remain extremely low. The moment that borrowing costs begin to rise, the trillion-dollar carry trade in US government securities will collapse.

                    So what happens when this bubble collapses?

                    Nobody knows for sure. But anyone who has dealt with carry trades in the past knows that when carry trades unwind they can do so very, very quickly and the results can be nightmarish.

                    The truth is that the U.S. financial system is a house of cards that could fall at any time. A lot of economic pain is on the horizon - it is only a matter of when it comes and how bad it is going to get. Trends forecaster Gerald Celente is predicting that it could be as soon as this year....



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: inflation vs deflation

                      Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                      A partial answer for you is here in this article - If The Money Supply Is Exploding Why Are We Not Seeing Rampant Inflation?
                      My hunch is that the charts and numbers in this "partial answer" are misleading, at best. I doubt that the dominant flows and balances of money, wealth and power are even minimally reflected in these published numbers. A simplistic "hydrostatic" economic model of money supply and flow applied to a superficial, trivialized and misleading numeric series has no modeling or forecasting value.

                      This is not a house of cards. It might collapse soon (though I quite doubt that) but it is a mechanism of considerable complexity, multiple independently acting agents with conflicting motives, dynamically varying positive and negative feedback loops, overlayed with layers and centuries of camouflage, propaganda, deception, confusion, corruption, fraud and misdirection.

                      The study of liquid mercury amounts and flows in and out of a few deceptively placed thermometers will not help us much to understand the workings of a large, old boiler factory.

                      Nothing personal, Rajiv. Indeed, my dismissal of the article you quote should itself be dismissed forthwith. The analysis and data of this article have been provided to us by people with far more experience, education and reputation in this business than I could ever hope to obtain (which is not to suggest that I harbor such hopes.)

                      Silly cows should stick to bovine humor and stop pretending to be students of economics .
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: inflation vs deflation

                        Pop quiz, kids! Who said this Sept. 11, 2006?
                        "There will be no deflation. I repeat: there will be no self reinforcing spiral of debt defaults, an irreversible collapse in the money supply and a decline in the general price level. Central banks will never again allow the rate of inflation to fall below short term interest rates, nor fail to supply sufficient liquidity to meet the demands of financial markets. There will be no repeat of a 1930s US depression or the grinding 1990s Japanese deflationary recession. Instead, we will experience something new, with elements of deflations, and inflations and stagflations past – rhymes of past verses of economic misfortune – but unlike any of these past episodes except equally unpleasant."
                        You get one guess.
                        Ed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: inflation vs deflation

                          Originally posted by FRED View Post
                          Pop quiz, kids! Who said this Sept. 11, 2006?
                          "There will be no deflation. I repeat: there will be no self reinforcing spiral of debt defaults, an irreversible collapse in the money supply and a decline in the general price level. Central banks will never again allow the rate of inflation to fall below short term interest rates, nor fail to supply sufficient liquidity to meet the demands of financial markets. There will be no repeat of a 1930s US depression or the grinding 1990s Japanese deflationary recession. Instead, we will experience something new, with elements of deflations, and inflations and stagflations past – rhymes of past verses of economic misfortune – but unlike any of these past episodes except equally unpleasant."
                          You get one guess.
                          Um, Lukester?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: inflation vs deflation

                            Originally posted by jimmygu3 View Post
                            Um, Lukester?
                            No I'm sure it was Greenspan.
                            It's Economics vs Thermodynamics. Thermodynamics wins.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: inflation vs deflation

                              Originally posted by FRED View Post
                              Pop quiz, kids! Who said this Sept. 11, 2006?
                              "There will be no deflation. I repeat: there will be no self reinforcing spiral of debt defaults, an irreversible collapse in the money supply and a decline in the general price level. Central banks will never again allow the rate of inflation to fall below short term interest rates, nor fail to supply sufficient liquidity to meet the demands of financial markets. There will be no repeat of a 1930s US depression or the grinding 1990s Japanese deflationary recession. Instead, we will experience something new, with elements of deflations, and inflations and stagflations past – rhymes of past verses of economic misfortune – but unlike any of these past episodes except equally unpleasant."
                              You get one guess.
                              Mr Google to the rescue; EJ, what a surprise!!

                              Comment

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