The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

[e_goldstein]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

It is a huge stretch to equate a nutter boomer who was probably off his meds, could still afford to maintain and hangar an airplane despite his tax problems, and tried to burn his family alive with the tea party people.

I guess the MSM will do whatever they can to boost their ratings these days.

:-|

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

The great strength of iTulip is the wide range of discussion, by individuals from all over the planet, on every conceivable subject. Yes, sometimes the threads get more off line than one would expect. But the more you keep in touch with this site, the more you will learn to respect the freedom to be able, without fear or favour to speak your mind. You are respected for your point of view BigBagel. That is by far the most important aspect of being a part of the iTulip community.

Well put

Also, think of how boring this site would be if everyone had the same opinion.

[cindykimlisa]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I'm sorry for your loss.



This explains your position.

My position was that clearly he was willing to die to draw attention to his plight and maybe affect some positive policy change. If there was a sense of duty to help those like him and make the US a better country then I think a case can be made that his actions are patriotic. Labeling him as a coward and a nutcase doesn't refute that.

I tend to form opinions by writing, reading responses, and looking for additional information. I didn't really have a firm position beforehand, but I do find it less helpful when everyone has the same position. After I read the note I was surprised that people came out to brand him a nut without making an attempt to understand what motivated him to commit suicide in such a manner. Everyone seems to assume that he couldn't possibly have legitimate grievances and that those in power to address them are somehow accountable for their decisions.

So I decided to take a starting position contrary to yours. I was hoping to foster some interesting debate on the matter since this is different than what we are used to reading about in the news. He was not an Islamic radical. He was a chubby guy from Texas. Will there be any impact on policies? What about the war on terror? It's difficult to dehumanize someone that is familiar to you. Are there political ramifications? Will this still be on the news next week?

I admit that I underestimated how polarizing this subject would be. I apologize if my position on the matter upset you. It would be a shame for you to leave the forum because of it, and I really hope it is not on my account.

Radon

Tell me how you think this is different than the college professor who shot and killed three professors in Alabama because they denied her tenure.

She didn't like their response so she killed some people.

The plane guy had the same response: he didn't like what some people said so he tried to kill some people in their organization.

I cannot qualify either of those people as being patriotic. I think they are both nut cases.

Cindy

[cindykimlisa]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Whiner? snivelling? coward?

Folks prefer to brand this fellow (who appeared to have much to give) rather than ask why someone who undeniably believed in bettering his self/contributing to society should become so despondent & broken?

If what Joe wrote holds any truth, then Joe took greater responsibility for his lot than most folks do. He acted, educating himself. He attempted to effect change through political process, spending $ and time. Joe's final acts, while selfish, disturbed, horrific and destructive were hardly cowardly.

Call him a terrorist, murderer or whatever, it doesn't make his complaints wimpy, nor his acts cowardly. Cowards don't act... They tend to talk about what they would do/should've done (if they only had the balls).

Clearly its much easier to write the Joes of the World off as a whack nut-jobs... Requires no questions about the state of the nation, nor introspection.

Man you are just as nutty as Joe if you think this is about anything other than Joe. He didn't like the system and neither do I. Jo Killed people and I don't.

Everything you said about Joe could also be true about the plane guys at 9/11 and about McVey who blew up the Federal building. The unibomber had his own solutions - I'm sure he did a lot of research and he didn't like the system so he blew people up. The issue is about these criminals and they are nut cases!

Cindy

[cindykimlisa]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Suppose he is an air force pilot. He is not a murderer because his actions are sanctioned by the state. They are not cowardly because he doesn't have to kill himself to reach his objectives. I suspect the villages that are bombed in Iraq and Afghanistan have a different opinion.

I disagree with the characterization of sniveling or whining. He spent a good part of his life whining to politicians and others to try and catch a break. In his note his is done whining. It struck me as lucid and angry, but I didn't get any sense of self pity from it.

That guy could be any former small business owner who has been continually marginalized because of red tape. The icing on the cake for him was when the IRS came for the last bit of his life savings.

Radon

I like your air force guy concept. But you missed the point. Suppose for example you have an air force guy who does not like how his mortgage is being foreclosed on so he flies a plane into a branch bank and kills all the people who were involved with his loan and a few customers. Would that be patriotic?

Cindy

Cindy

[DToM67]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Man you are just as nutty as Joe if you think this is about anything other than Joe. He didn't like the system and neither do I. Jo Killed people and I don't.

Everything you said about Joe could also be true about the plane guys at 9/11 and about McVey who blew up the Federal building. The unibomber had his own solutions - I'm sure he did a lot of research and he didn't like the system so he blew people up. The issue is about these criminals and they are nut cases!

Cindy

Typical. Ad hominem argument (attack the man).

Attempt to justify your position or the actions of one or a group, by calling names... Terrorist, Islamo-fascist, Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative. Who cares about actual facts:rolleyes:

This, cindykimlisa, is the REAL problem in this country today.

Don't address the issues/ask the difficult questions... and thusly avoid logic, meaningful analysis, discussion or debate. .

Is it any wonder those that feel marginalized, impotent and voiceless become willing to make statements with violence?

[BigBagel]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Typical. Ad hominem argument (attack the man).

Attempt to justify your position or the actions of one or a group, by calling names... Terrorist, Islamo-fascist, Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative. Who cares about actual facts:rolleyes:

This, cindykimlisa, is the REAL problem in this country today.

Don't address the issues/ask the difficult questions... and thusly avoid logic, meaningful analysis, discussion or debate. .

Is it any wonder those that feel marginalized, impotent and voiceless become willing to make statements with violence?

B.S. If you think it's OK to crash a plane into a public building because you have a gripe you're a nut. I've read that this nut's gripe was he was getting grief from the IRS over claiming his residence as a church. I think churches should pay taxes along with everyone else but I won't be crashing a plane into anything over the issue.

[jiimbergin]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

B.S. If you think it's OK to crash a plane into a public building because you have a gripe you're a nut. I've read that this nut's gripe was he was getting grief from the IRS over claiming his residence as a church. I think churches should pay taxes along with everyone else but I won't be crashing a plane into anything over the issue.

I second that! There is no way to justify what this man did.

[flintlock]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Ditto. I re-read that guy's "manifesto". If everyone that had a beef with the IRS crashed a plane we'd have no planes left.

Now if he wanted to crash a plane into the FED.........

[DToM67]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

B.S. If you think it's OK to crash a plane into a public building because you have a gripe you're a nut. I've read that this nut's gripe was he was getting grief from the IRS over claiming his residence as a church. I think churches should pay taxes along with everyone else but I won't be crashing a plane into anything over the issue.

What has any of your rant got to do with what I said?

Did you read me saying I agreed with his manifesto? No. Nor did I suggest that you or anyone else should crash planes into buildings.

Look up "Straw Man" and logical fallacy

[sunskyfan]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Interesting position. How did you feel about cruse missiles into buildings in Iraq or our continuing air strikes into Afghanistan and Pakistan? A black and white world it is not.

[DToM67]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Interesting position. How did you feel about cruse missiles into buildings in Iraq or our continuing air strikes into Afghanistan and Pakistan? A black and white world it is not.

Might I ask to whom are you directing this question? The lack of quote(s) makes it unclear.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Agreed - Ghandi's methods come to mind.

Yeah, he certainly succeeded in bring peace and prosperity to India.

[SamAdams]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I think the only solution to these problems is to disobey in large numbers. It's worked many times throughout history. They can't lock up or kill us all.
I have this argument all the time with people close to me about there being a political solution to these types of problems. Participation in this system at any level is nothing short of an exercise in futility. The system has gotten too big, and those that are in the system are looking after the interests of no one other than themselves. The idea that this is "your/my government" is to me, just silly. It seems that Joe Stack learned that lesson. Unfortunately he did the wrong thing. I don't for a minute disagree with his reasoning. He should have just given the IRS the middle finger and gone on the lam.... Enough people do that and that will effect some change.

If this sort of thing keeps up I think we're well on our way to a night of the long knives sooner or later here in America.

http://www.peacemagazine.org/198.htm

The Methods of Nonviolent Action
(from Gene Sharp, The Methods of Nonviolent Action, Boston 1973)
THE METHODS OF NONVIOLENT PROTEST AND PERSUASION

FORMAL STATEMENTS

Public speeches
Letters of opposition or support
Declarations by organizations and institutions
Signed public declarations
Declarations of indictment and intention
Group or mass petitions
COMMUNICATIONS WITH A WIDER AUDIENCE

Slogans, caricatures, and symbols
Banners, posters, and displayed communications
Leaflets, pamphlets, and books
Newspapers and journals
Records, radio, and television
Skywriting and earthwriting
GROUP REPRESENTATIONS

Deputations
Mock awards
Group lobbying
Picketing
Mock elections
SYMBOLIC PUBLIC ACTS

Displays of flags and symbolic colours
Wearing of symbols
Prayer and worship
Delivering symbolic objects
Protest disrobings
Destruction of own property
Symbolic lights
Displays of portraits
Paint as protest
New signs and names
Symbolic sounds
Symbolic reclamations
Rude gestures
PRESSURES ON INDIVIDUALS

“Haunting” officials
Taunting officials
Fraternization
Vigils
DRAMA AND MUSIC

Humourous skits and pranks
Performances of plays and music
Singing
PROCESSIONS

Marches
Parades
Religious processions
Pilgrimages
Motorcades
HONOURING THE DEAD

Political mourning
Mock funerals
Demonstrative funerals
Homage at burial places
PUBLIC ASSEMBLIES

Assemblies of protest or support
Protest meetings
Camouflaged meetings of protest
Teach-ins
WITHDRAWAL AND RENUNCIATION

Walk-outs
Silence
Renouncing honours
Turning one’s back
THE METHODS OF SOCIAL NONCOOPERATION

OSTRACISM OF PERSONS

Social boycott
Selective social boycott
Lysistratic nonaction
Excommunication
Interdict
NONCOOPERATION WITH SOCIAL EVENTS, CUSTOMS, AND INSTITUTIONS

Suspension of social and sports activities
Boycott of social affairs
Student strike
Social disobedience
Withdrawal from social institutions
WITHDRAWAL FROM THE SOCIAL SYSTEM

Stay-at-home
Total personal noncooperation
“Flight” of workers
Sanctuary
Collective disappearance
Protest emigration (hijrat)
THE METHODS OF ECONOMIC NONCOOPERATION: ECONOMIC BOYCOTTS

ACTION BY CONSUMERS

Consumers’ boycott
Nonconsumption of boycotted goods
Policy of austerity
Rent withholding
Refusal to rent
National consumers’ boycott
International consumers’ boycott
ACTION BY WORKERS AND PRODUCERS

Workers’ boycott
Producers’ boycott
ACTION BY MIDDLEMEN

Suppliers’ and handlers’ boycott
ACTION BY OWNERS AND MANAGEMENT

Traders’ boycott
Refusal to let or sell property
Lockout
Refusal of industrial assistance
Merchants’ “general strike”
ACTION BY HOLDERS OF FINANCIAL RESOURCES

Withdrawal of bank deposits
Refusal to pay fees, dues, and assessments
Refusal to pay debts or interest
Severance of funds and credit
Revenue refusal
Refusal of a government’s money
ACTION BY GOVERNMENTS

Domestic embargo
Blacklisting of traders
International sellers’ embargo
International buyers’ embargo
International trade embargo
THE METHODS OF ECONOMIC NONCOOOPERATION: THE STRIKE h4. SYMBOLIC STRIKES

Protest strike
Quickie walkout (lightning strike)
AGRICULTURAL STRIKES

Peasant strike
100. Farm workers’ strike
STRIKES BY SPECIAL GROUPS

Refusal of impressed labour
Prisoners’ strike
Craft strike
Professional strike
ORDINARY INDUSTRIAL STRIKES

Establishment strike
Industry strike
Sympathy strike
RESTRICTED STRIKES

Detailed strike
Bumper strike
Slowdown strike
Working-to-rule strike
Reporting “sick” (sick-in)
Strike by resignation
Limited strike
Selective strike
MULTI-INDUSTRY STRIKES

Generalised strike
General strike
COMBINATION OF STRIKES AND ECONOMIC CLOSURES

Hartal
Economic shutdown
THE METHODS OF POLITICAL NONCOOPERATION

REJECTION OF AUTHORITY

Withholding or withdrawal of allegiance
Refusal of public support
Literature and speeches advocating resistance
CITIZENS’ NONCOOPERATION WITH GOVERNMENT

Boycott of legislative bodies
Boycott of elections
Boycott of government employment and positions
Boycott of government departments, agencies, and other bodies
Withdrawal from governmental educational institutions
Boycott of government-supported institutions
Refusal of assistance to enforcement agents
Removal of own signs and placemarks
Refusal to accept appointed officials
Refusal to dissolve existing institutions
CITIZENS’ ALTERNATIVES TO OBEDIENCE

Reluctant and slow compliance
Nonobedience in absence of direct supervision
Popular nonobedience
Disguised disobedience
Refusal of an assemblage or meeting to disperse
Sitdown
Noncooperation with conscription and deportation
Hiding, escape, and false identities
Civil disobedience of “illegitimate” laws
ACTION BY GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL

Selective refusal of assistance by government aides
Blocking of lines of command and information
Stalling and obstruction
General administrative noncooperation
Judicial noncooperation
Deliberate inefficiency and selective noncooperation by enforcement agents
Mutiny
DOMESTIC GOVERNMENTAL ACTION

Quasi-legal evasions and delays
Noncooperation by constituent governmental units
INTERNATIONAL GOVERNMENTAL ACTION

Changes in diplomatic and other representation
Delay and cancellation of diplomatic events
Withholding of diplomatic recognition
Severance of diplomatic relations
Withdrawal from international organisations
Refusal of membership in international bodies
Expulsion from international organisations
THE METHODS OF NONVIOLENT INTERVENTION h4. PSYCHOLOGICAL INTERVENTION

Self-exposure to the elements
The fast
Fast of moral pressure
Hunger strike
Satyagrahic fast
Reverse trial
Nonviolent harassment
PHYSICAL INTERVENTION

Sit-in
Stand-in
Ride-in
Wade-in
Mill-in
Pray-in
Nonviolent raids
Nonviolent air raids
Nonviolent invasion
Nonviolent interjection
Nonviolent obstruction
Nonviolent occupation
SOCIAL INTERVENTION

Establishing new social patterns
Overloading of facilities
Stall-in
Speak-in
Guerrilla theatre
Alternative social institutions
Alternative communication system
ECONOMIC INTERVENTION

Reverse strike
Stay-in strike
Nonviolent land seizure
Defiance of blockades
Politically motivated counterfeiting
Preclusive purchasing
Seizure of assets
Dumping
Selective patronage
Alternative markets
Alternative transportation systems
Alternative economic institutions
POLITICAL INTERVENTION

Overloading of administrative systems
Disclosing identities of secret agents
Seeking imprisonment
Civil disobedience of “neutral” laws
Work-on without collaboration
Dual sovereignty and parallel government

[sunskyfan]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

It was in response to cindykimlisa ...