The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I was surprised that metal had not commented on this story. This guy is a complete whiner, a coward and now a murderer. This was no manifesto, it was a sniveling, poor-me suicide note. Nothing more.

Suppose he is an air force pilot. He is not a murderer because his actions are sanctioned by the state. They are not cowardly because he doesn't have to kill himself to reach his objectives. I suspect the villages that are bombed in Iraq and Afghanistan have a different opinion.

I disagree with the characterization of sniveling or whining. He spent a good part of his life whining to politicians and others to try and catch a break. In his note his is done whining. It struck me as lucid and angry, but I didn't get any sense of self pity from it.

That guy could be any former small business owner who has been continually marginalized because of red tape. The icing on the cake for him was when the IRS came for the last bit of his life savings.

[newnewthing]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Well, I have a lot in common with Stack. I'm an engineer, programmer, and former small aircraft owner. I also was an IRS non filier (but not non payer) who watched the IRS ratchet up enforcement actions. The difference is that I blamed myself, not the IRS and I corrected my behaviour and filed my taxes. The regulations aren't that onerous and my dealings with the IRS were always cordial. We all have to pay for the government we have and the IRS just has a job to do. What they do and the processes they go through I personally witnessed are well described on their web site. There really is no excuse for a guy that owned his own home and airplane descending into the abyss that Stack did. That he killed other people in his deluded, destructive act is unforgivable. His screed reminds me of the Unibomber's manifesto. One of a gifted, and very disturbed, individual.

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

What you've written is true and even if he wrote a well thought out political analysis of corruption in our government he'd still be a murderer. I'm surprised that people on this website would hail this worm as a patriot.

So patriotism is suddenly mutually exclusive to killing? The only thing that is true is that metal hasn't posted yet. The rest is opinion the same as yours and mine. As for metal, I suspect he has better things to do, but this is a slow day for me.

Using our schizophrenic national policy as a way to exonerate killers seems unsound. If you don't then there are thousands of police, military, and others agents of the state that could also be labeled murderers as well. I suppose that is an unacceptable alternative. They are just doing their jobs, they are not responsible.

He had the balls to fly a plane into a building to make a point. In the process he did something most people never do in there entire lives. He stood up and said enough was enough and that he refused to let the system screw him over anymore.

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I agree the Tea Baggers are a terrorist organization.

We need to bring the military home from Iraq and have them bomb Texas to bits, round up all TeaBaggers, and send them to Gitmo to await trial for 10 yrs or so.

Yeah, mass arrests and prison camps would be a great way to turn people from that cause. If they did that there would be a civil war. You know many people in Iraq are from Texas. They aren't going to be to keen on killing their neighbors.

Makes me laugh how ignorant people in America are, compare this guy to the underwear bomber, who was more sucessful, who did more damage, who is more of a "terrorist", ...

why will this guy not be tried in a military court since he attacked the USA government?

Maybe because he is dead?

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Maybe he had no other outlets for his frustration.

In my mind this is probably the largest contributing factor. I also suspect that when he left home he was worried that he wouldn't be able to go through with it so he set his house on fire.

"He was nuts - but he had balls".

I don't think he was nuts. He's just some impoverished ex middle class ex small business owner who had nothing left to lose. Over his career no politician, media, or administrator would listen to him, and all the while his ability to make a living was systematically eroded over the years through legislation and taxes.

[roxtar]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I disapprove of what this man did(if the story is confirmed), there has to be a better way to end this darkness without violence.

I think the only solution to these problems is to disobey in large numbers. It's worked many times throughout history. They can't lock up or kill us all.
I have this argument all the time with people close to me about there being a political solution to these types of problems. Participation in this system at any level is nothing short of an exercise in futility. The system has gotten too big, and those that are in the system are looking after the interests of no one other than themselves. The idea that this is "your/my government" is to me, just silly. It seems that Joe Stack learned that lesson. Unfortunately he did the wrong thing. I don't for a minute disagree with his reasoning. He should have just given the IRS the middle finger and gone on the lam.... Enough people do that and that will effect some change.

If this sort of thing keeps up I think we're well on our way to a night of the long knives sooner or later here in America.

[WDCRob]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

If he was a brown guy with a long beard wearing a funny-looking piece of headgear everyone that ever loaned him a dollar, talked to him on his cell phone, delivered a sermon he attended or was videotaped with him on a security cam would be rounded up and questioned (or worse).

Middle-age white guy? Nothing to see here - move along.

Sorry. He's a nutcase and a terrorist just like those guys who did the WTCs.

[BigBagel]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

When you see someone hail him as a patriot - let us know!:cool:

In the end decided to strike a corrupt system in the only way he could. In this way his actions are patriotic.

That was easy.

I lost 23 co-workers on 9/11. You have to excuse me but I'm not really big on people who fly planes into buildings. I come to this website for thoughtful commentary on finance and things in general. If this site has evolved into a forum where people justify flying planes into public buildings then I guess it's time for me to move on.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

That was easy.

I lost 23 co-workers on 9/11. You have to excuse me but I'm not really big on people who fly planes into buildings. I come to this website for thoughtful commentary on finance and things in general. If this site has evolved into a forum where people justify flying planes into public buildings then I guess it's time for me to move on.

The great strength of iTulip is the wide range of discussion, by individuals from all over the planet, on every conceivable subject. Yes, sometimes the threads get more off line than one would expect. But the more you keep in touch with this site, the more you will learn to respect the freedom to be able, without fear or favour to speak your mind. You are respected for your point of view BigBagel. That is by far the most important aspect of being a part of the iTulip community.

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Middle-age white guy? Nothing to see here - move along.

That would be a good policy response. If this is really just some random nut the appropriate action is to do nothing.

This sort of thing is hard to use for political gain. A middle-aged guy from Texas doesn't look different enough to make a good pinata. The best thing to do is hide the suicide note, brand him as a nut, and watch everyone forget about this in a week.

Sorry. He's a nutcase and a terrorist just like those guys who did the WTCs.

He might fit the definition of a terrorist, but from what I've read he didn't seem crazy.

[bobola]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Radon,

His wife and 12 year old daughter were living in the same house he torched. They lost everything destroyed by fire and insurance won't pay them a dime (owner arson). The plane is gone and insurance won't pay a dime on that. He flies a plane into a building with the intent to kill as many people as he can as quickly as he can (he chose not to do it at night or a weekend day when everyone is gone) and you don't think he's nuts....???? Really...???

I don't think he was nuts. He's just some impoverished ex middle class ex small business owner who had nothing left to lose. Over his career no politician, media, or administrator would listen to him, and all the while his ability to make a living was systematically eroded over the years through legislation and taxes.

[sunskyfan]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

There is a huge difference between "justice" and "understanding". I would not argue any justification for what this guy did. The concept of "patriotism" is the blend of emotion and politics: hardly useful almost all of the time. Part of the trouble since 911 is that we have allowed trauma and fear to shut down an honest dialogue about our world. It has been so effective that trauma and fear are now openly part of both our political and economic lives. While sometimes difficult I think we must face the "devil in the eye" and seek an understanding of why things happen or we will be lost even if it is as painful as trying to relate to why someone would kill another human being. Remember, we fire missiles into buildings inside of Pakistan and Afghanistan as a matter of policy that emerged from 911. We directed cruse missiles into buildings in Iraq as a matter of policy from 911. Hopefully the world stops to understand why we did and are doing this even though some might not think it was or is justified.

Some might not be as careful as others with their choice of words but let's not shut down the conversation and analysis that searches for understanding.

[radon]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

That was easy.
I lost 23 co-workers on 9/11.

I'm sorry for your loss.

You have to excuse me but I'm not really big on people who fly planes into buildings.

This explains your position.

My position was that clearly he was willing to die to draw attention to his plight and maybe affect some positive policy change. If there was a sense of duty to help those like him and make the US a better country then I think a case can be made that his actions are patriotic. Labeling him as a coward and a nutcase doesn't refute that.

I tend to form opinions by writing, reading responses, and looking for additional information. I didn't really have a firm position beforehand, but I do find it less helpful when everyone has the same position. After I read the note I was surprised that people came out to brand him a nut without making an attempt to understand what motivated him to commit suicide in such a manner. Everyone seems to assume that he couldn't possibly have legitimate grievances and that those in power to address them are somehow accountable for their decisions.

So I decided to take a starting position contrary to yours. I was hoping to foster some interesting debate on the matter since this is different than what we are used to reading about in the news. He was not an Islamic radical. He was a chubby guy from Texas. Will there be any impact on policies? What about the war on terror? It's difficult to dehumanize someone that is familiar to you. Are there political ramifications? Will this still be on the news next week?

I admit that I underestimated how polarizing this subject would be. I apologize if my position on the matter upset you. It would be a shame for you to leave the forum because of it, and I really hope it is not on my account.

[wayiwalk]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayiwalk When you see someone hail him as a patriot - let us know!:cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by radon In the end decided to strike a corrupt system in the only way he could. In this way his actions are patriotic.

Quote: That was easy.

I lost 23 co-workers on 9/11. You have to excuse me but I'm not really big on people who fly planes into buildings. I come to this website for thoughtful commentary on finance and things in general. If this site has evolved into a forum where people justify flying planes into public buildings then I guess it's time for me to move on.

____________________

Sure was. Didn't think anyone really felt that way.

[wayiwalk]

Re: The Austin Texas Bombing Is A HUGE Image Blow To The "Tea Party" Right

I think the only solution to these problems is to disobey in large numbers. It's worked many times throughout history. They can't lock up or kill us all.
I have this argument all the time with people close to me about there being a political solution to these types of problems. Participation in this system at any level is nothing short of an exercise in futility. The system has gotten too big, and those that are in the system are looking after the interests of no one other than themselves. The idea that this is "your/my government" is to me, just silly. It seems that Joe Stack learned that lesson. Unfortunately he did the wrong thing. I don't for a minute disagree with his reasoning. He should have just given the IRS the middle finger and gone on the lam.... Enough people do that and that will effect some change.

If this sort of thing keeps up I think we're well on our way to a night of the long knives sooner or later here in America.

Agreed - Ghandi's methods come to mind.