Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

..Two, no mass is destroyed in the mining of fossil fuels. The atoms just get re-arranged ...

Nor was any energy destroyed. The sunlight you discuss wasn't destroyed, and not very much of it was reflected back out to space. It was absorbed and became heat, same as if it hit the ground.

[GRG55]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Well, the idea makes perfect sense.

Just try it out sometime. Get a top and spin it. Watch how nicely it spins.

Take the top, cut out a small chunk and tape it to the other side of the top and then spin it and watch what happens.

Wobble.

I can't believe the stuff that gets discussed around here sometimes...

Okay, the mass of the Earth is estimated at 5.97 x 10^21 tonnes.
[Source: International Astronomical Union and the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics]

The highest estimate, of which I am aware, of the total amount of oil extracted from the earth over the entire history of the industry is 136 billion tonnes.
[Source: Jones et al. Total amounts of oil produced over the history of the industry. International Journal of Oil Gas and Coal Technology, Vol 2, No. 2, 2009]

So that means that all the oil extracted represents approximately 0.0000000023 percent of the mass of the earth.

That would seem more like a top with a tiny scratch in the paint, not a chunk taken out of it. Bet it would spin just fine...:p

[loweyecue]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Loved some of the politically activist responses. Predictable in nature but worth their weight in gold for sure entertainment value.

[GRG55]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Loved some of the politically activist responses. Predictable in nature but worth their weight in gold for sure entertainment value.

Agree.

Who's the moron here?

I think you need to make sure you're right before so casually tossing the insults around here.

The atmosphere has a far less impact on earth's rotation than the crust does.

Reminds me of the story of Charles Lindbergh and the fly in the cockpit of the Spirit of St Louis on his way across the Atlantic to win the Orteig Prize...does the weight of the airplane and its contents [that the wings of the airplane have to carry] increase if the fly is not airborne? ;)

[sadsack]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Reminds me of the story of Charles Lindbergh and the fly in the cockpit of the Spirit of St Louis on his way across the Atlantic to win the Orteig Prize...does the weight of the airplane and its contents [that the wings of the airplane have to carry] increase if the fly is not airborne? ;)

Better yet, how about the Airplane on a treadmill problem?

Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?

[radon]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

I can't believe the stuff that gets discussed around here sometimes...

Okay, the mass of the Earth is estimated at 5.97 x 10^21 tonnes.
[Source: International Astronomical Union and the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics]

The highest estimate, of which I am aware, of the total amount of oil extracted from the earth over the entire history of the industry is 136 billion tonnes.
[Source: Jones et al. Total amounts of oil produced over the history of the industry. International Journal of Oil Gas and Coal Technology, Vol 2, No. 2, 2009]

So that means that all the oil extracted represents approximately 0.0000000023 percent of the mass of the earth.

That would seem more like a top with a tiny scratch in the paint, not a chunk taken out of it. Bet it would spin just fine...:p

If you scale up the top until it weighed 1Kg it would be equivalent to removing a couple micrograms. You'd probably need special tools. Cleaning the international prototype kilogram removes more mass.

[c1ue]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Who's the moron here?

I think you need to make sure you're right before so casually tossing the insults around here.

The atmosphere has a far less impact on earth's rotation than the crust does.

Another one bellies up to the bar.

Gravitationally the mass is still the same, and furthermore still very well distributed.

Rotational changes occur when there are length changes in the axis or mass changes in distribution from even to uneven or vice versa - see a figure skater doing a spin.

[peakishmael]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

I can't believe the stuff that gets discussed around here sometimes...

Okay, the mass of the Earth is estimated at 5.97 x 10^21 tonnes.
[Source: International Astronomical Union and the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics]

The highest estimate, of which I am aware, of the total amount of oil extracted from the earth over the entire history of the industry is 136 billion tonnes.
[Source: Jones et al. Total amounts of oil produced over the history of the industry. International Journal of Oil Gas and Coal Technology, Vol 2, No. 2, 2009]

So that means that all the oil extracted represents approximately 0.0000000023 percent of the mass of the earth.

That would seem more like a top with a tiny scratch in the paint, not a chunk taken out of it. Bet it would spin just fine...:p

Yep. And outweighing that effect, would be the pre-existing mass imbalance of the Earth. All that land, sticking up above sea level in random places, for instance. Yet somehow, we live. :rolleyes:

If you want to read about a SERIOUS wobble in Earth's axis, look up "precession". We're swingin' around big-time every 26,000 years, but that hasn't killed us either, only given astrologers fits.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

If you scale up the top until it weighed 1Kg it would be equivalent to removing a couple micrograms. You'd probably need special tools. Cleaning the international prototype kilogram removes more mass.

Now you guys be nice. Many people aren't naturally good with big numbers, or scales way outside personal experience, or kinematics. We all have our blind spots..:p

[centsless]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

I heard a similar theory about the impending magnetic pole reversal (another 2012 event?) whereby the planet's climate reverses. I'm not sure how that works. Best I can cipher is that the magnets must be so big & heavy that when they migrate thru the earth's crust to their reverse positions, well, you can see how the earth will be set upon its side in the process. This is why people with large love handles have trouble standing upright but no problem at all laying down on the couch. Now just imagine that shift on a planetary scale. I'm scared.

In other news, I recently had fun little discussion with my 20 year old college going nephew who told me that gravity is caused by magnetism. I'm going back to my couch now.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Nor was any energy destroyed. The sunlight you discuss wasn't destroyed, and not very much of it was reflected back out to space. It was absorbed and became heat, same as if it hit the ground.

Trust me, clouds ( and especially clouds from dense fog )do a very good job in reflecting solar radiation. They are like having snow-cover.

In studying temperatures in the Central Valley of California in December--- the foggiest month of the year in that valley--- dense fog episodes slowly erode the mean daily temperature. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets. After three weeks of dense fog, the temperature goes below freezing both day and night, and ice fog conditions appear. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets--- until conditions become as bleak as they get in Canada in winter.

No lie, people chip ice off of their car windows even as far south as Bakersfield in winter during dense groud-fog conditions. Everything takes on a thick coating of ice.

Rise-up 1000 feet above the valley floor, and temperatures may be 20 degrees F warmer, but in the Central Valley the conditions are freezing.

Dense fog tends to keep temperatures at night above freezing for the first few days. Then the daytime temperatures drop, and the freezing begins at night, just slight freezing at first. By the third week of dense ground-fog, the ice fog begins, and temperatures are well below 32F (0C) at night and not much above 32F during the day--- if even above 32F. Four weeks of dense fog means day and night under 32F.

Dense fog cools the Earth because it knocks-out (reflects-out) the sunlight, and the Sun is the main driver of temperature on Earth. Pollution from coal-burning helps to create dense fog conditions in cities everywhere, even in the tropics.

[centsless]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Trust me, clouds ( and especially clouds from dense fog )do a very good job in reflecting solar radiation. They are like having snow-cover.

9/11 contrail study

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Trust me, clouds ( and especially clouds from dense fog )do a very good job in reflecting solar radiation. They are like having snow-cover.

In studying temperatures in the Central Valley of California in December--- the foggiest month of the year in that valley--- dense fog episodes slowly erode the mean daily temperature. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets. After three weeks of dense fog, the temperature goes below freezing both day and night, and ice fog conditions appear. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets--- until conditions become as bleak as they get in Canada in winter.

No lie, people chip ice off of their car windows even as far south as Bakersfield in winter during dense groud-fog conditions. Everything takes on a thick coating of ice.

Rise-up 1000 feet above the valley floor, and temperatures may be 20 degrees F warmer, but in the Central Valley the conditions are freezing.

Dense fog tends to keep temperatures at night above freezing for the first few days. Then the daytime temperatures drop, and the freezing begins at night, just slight freezing at first. By the third week of dense ground-fog, the ice fog begins, and temperatures are well below 32F (0C) at night and not much above 32F during the day--- if even above 32F. Four weeks of dense fog means day and night under 32F.

Dense fog cools the Earth because it knocks-out (reflects-out) the sunlight, and the Sun is the main driver of temperature on Earth. Pollution from coal-burning helps to create dense fog conditions in cities everywhere, even in the tropics.

Of course your personal experience is true, but it may not translate to a global scale or necessarily apply to fossil fuel emissions. Solar radiation may not reach the ground and so the ground gets cold, but that doesn't mean it reflects out to space; it may warm higher layers of the atmosphere. And the little ice crystals and water droplets of natural clouds have different emissivity/absorbtivity/reflectivity than carbon soot particles from coal or diesel particulate emissions. Your hypothesis falls under the category "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

[Starving Steve]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Of course your personal experience is true, but it may not translate to a global scale or necessarily apply to fossil fuel emissions. Solar radiation may not reach the ground and so the ground gets cold, but that doesn't mean it reflects out to space; it may warm higher layers of the atmosphere. And the little ice crystals and water droplets of natural clouds have different emissivity/absorbtivity/reflectivity than carbon soot particles from coal or diesel particulate emissions. Your hypothesis falls under the category "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Agreed, more research has to be done, especially into the temperature records in the world's filthiest cities like Mumbai, India. I have only an hypothesis at this point and nothing more.

So I will close my mouth and not speculate further.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Oil puts the world on tilt .. scary stuff

Trust me, clouds ( and especially clouds from dense fog )do a very good job in reflecting solar radiation. They are like having snow-cover.

In studying temperatures in the Central Valley of California in December--- the foggiest month of the year in that valley--- dense fog episodes slowly erode the mean daily temperature. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets. After three weeks of dense fog, the temperature goes below freezing both day and night, and ice fog conditions appear. The longer the fog persists, the colder it gets--- until conditions become as bleak as they get in Canada in winter.

No lie, people chip ice off of their car windows even as far south as Bakersfield in winter during dense groud-fog conditions. Everything takes on a thick coating of ice.

Rise-up 1000 feet above the valley floor, and temperatures may be 20 degrees F warmer, but in the Central Valley the conditions are freezing.

Dense fog tends to keep temperatures at night above freezing for the first few days. Then the daytime temperatures drop, and the freezing begins at night, just slight freezing at first. By the third week of dense ground-fog, the ice fog begins, and temperatures are well below 32F (0C) at night and not much above 32F during the day--- if even above 32F. Four weeks of dense fog means day and night under 32F.

Dense fog cools the Earth because it knocks-out (reflects-out) the sunlight, and the Sun is the main driver of temperature on Earth. Pollution from coal-burning helps to create dense fog conditions in cities everywhere, even in the tropics.

I lived in Davis in the central valley for 3 years in the early 70s and I can vouch for this on my own personal experience. There was one 17 day period when the best visability was 1/4 mile and that was rare. It got very cold, but all you had to do was go up in the coastal mountains above the fog and it was warm and sunny