Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Exactly, some people have a psychological predisposition to believe in conspiracy theories. These theories fill up voids in their minds, helping them explain perceptual gaps in their thought processes

Open your eyes ... if you can .

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Exactly, some people have a psychological predisposition to believe in conspiracy theories. These theories fill up voids in their minds, helping them explain perceptual gaps in their thought processes.

How many here have made money or important decisions based on conspiracy theories? How many have made money or decisions on facts and evidence?

Conspiracy thinking is dangerous because it does not correctly associate blame, and in doing so, has people fighting a chimera they can never defeat while ignoring real problems. It is a form of scapegoating, where we identify a conscious evil entity instead of the actual enemy, which is a system design that institutes radical evil, or the mundane form of accepted ways of doing things that produces negative results by its lack of realism.

Common conspiracy targets are the military-industrial complex, "The Jew," the Masons, the Media, the Christian right, multinational corporations, and so on. These are more correctly referred to as "lobbies," or those who influence politics indirectly with money and favors and mass mobilization through media, and when they are successful as "oligarchs," or those who manipulate from behind the scenes with money and power and social influence. However, lobbies and oligarchs did not create the system as it is, nor do they control it, although they have power in it and profit from it. They are symptoms and not the disease. The disease is a bad social design that allows such things to happen.

It is beyond doubt that lobbies and oligarchs create damage and perpetuate the decline of a system, but it is a mistake to assign to them a shadowy role of controlling it or creating it, because one will be then fighting the lobby or oligarch -- which is one of many such entities -- and not focusing on fixing the system itself. Conspiracy thinking engenders a negative psychology of paranoia and symbolic thinking instead of directing the user toward a realism in which the social design is corrupt and can be fixed, and that fix will in itself eliminate the power of all lobbies and oligarchs, actually resolving the problem.

Most who subscribe to conspiracy thinking do so from the following psychological pragma: because X group is in control, and X group can never be beaten, there is nothing I can do of substance, therefore I will grumble and groan but I will not take practical action, because if I do so, X group will eliminate me. Conspiracy thinking is not only illogical, but it is a shallow psychological justification for inaction.

http://www.corrupt.org/data/faq/#6.5

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Conspiracy thinking is dangerous because it does not correctly associate blame,

Not always. Some explanations are labeled conspiracy theories which quite directly associate blame.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that, for any event of significant interest (say the provocation of war or a high level assassination or a major financial panic) there are perhaps 47 various conspiracy theories, most of which in the eyes of any particular interested observer are obviously bogus.

One official story and 47 conspiracy theories.

The problem with the official story is that all too often, the true story is quite a bit closer to one of those 47 conspiracy theories.

Eric deCarbonnel has an amusing take on conspiracy theories in his latest post today Preview of Next Major Article. It's got some good British humor in it.

[Diarmuid]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Not always. Some explanations are labeled conspiracy theories which quite directly associate blame.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that, for any event of significant interest (say the provocation of war or a high level assassination or a major financial panic) there are perhaps 47 various conspiracy theories, most of which in the eyes of any particular interested observer are obviously bogus.

Preview of Next Major Article. It's got some good British humor in it.

What a catch all phrase "conspiracy theory" is, does it have any value either then to discourage proper due diligence on the side of some who might theorize or fill gaps in understanding as Serge said, where due diligence, seems like to much hard work, or to discredit on the side of conspirators and prevent due diligence in those who might otherwise look closer at particular events or processes for fear of being labeled.

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Thanks for the clarification JT - I really have no offense in anything you have said along the way. I have learned from you.

What is uncanny is I don't think we even had a defensive military aircraft in the sky when all of that started to happen on 9/11.

Cindy

Cindy, The Air Force had a handful of fighters already airborne in the northeast on the morning of 9/11. Some F-16's and a couple of F-15's. They were doing some normally scheduled training and were unarmed. The F-15's were from Cape Cod and once they realized what was happening, raced down to Manhattan but just a few minutes too late to intercept the 2nd attacker.

The F-16's were from Maryland, I believe, flew to DC and orbited the city waiting for the 2nd attack which never arrived. Being unarmed they discussed the possibility of ramming an attacker. All of this was reported in Aviation Week.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

What a catch all phrase "conspiracy theory" is, does it have any value ...

Like many propaganda labels, it has a value, a dubious value. We all have to rely to some considerable extent on others for our understanding and views. When someone labels something with disdain or associates an idea with other disdainful ideas, it naturally discourages our looking closer. That's just a part of being a herding creature.

So, yes, it has a value, as a useful tool of liars.

[oddlots]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

How many here have made money or important decisions based on conspiracy theories? How many have made money or decisions on facts and evidence?

I think this is instructive but not, in the end, a fatal criticism.

I agree that there is a kind of moral hazard to believing in conspiracy theories as a trader or investor. It gives you license to evade full responsibility for your actions and is thus out of court purely based on psychological "hygiene" so to speak.

But I don't think that this settles anything in terms of the objective truth of a given accusation.

Take the suggestion that the precious metals markets are manipulated. I don't think the idea is outrageous. I believe Volker in his autobiography said he regretted letting gold get to such heights. And the apparently huge, concentrated short positions in metals seems strange to me, though I don't really understand how those markets work. Ditto the claim that the stock markets are being propped up with official or cut out buying in the futures market. As another poster pointed out, a Fed official once made the observation that the stock market was certainly small enough to be easily influenced by Fed operations should the need arise. And once again, the market behaviour does not appear to be rational or, in other words, explainable by reference to individual entities pursuing a trading profit.

So I don't think either of those two accusations are on their face ridiculous but I also I don't spend much time thinking or investigating these things because it's a distraction and, over the long term, I don't think they can work. I ignore it. But I don't think that such theories can therefore be dismissed. (That would involve a lot more work, with dubious rewards.)

On the flip side I think there's also a psychological payoff to labeling something a conspiracy theory. I'm not thinking of anyone here but I certainly see it used in mainstream media this way. To my mind, it works as a way of enlisting the authority of MadCow's herd to silence criticism. I think I even heard it thrown at Joe Saluzzi as recently as last week to counter his scepticism about market depth. In this form, it seems to me, it's kind of an authoritarian form of discourse: by joining me in dismissing x as a conspiracy theory you are displaying how sensible and adult you are, how well you fit in here with us. Of course there's a similar pay off when a theory does need to be dismissed, but the lack of any counter-argument or evidence in the Saluzzi example I think illustrates that it can operate as an empty rhetorical device.

It also illustrates that it re-enforces the status quo and I often see it used this way. How many times have you heard it in the mouth of someone who you honestly believe is ill informed, who really just wants to win an argument, or is too fearful to consider that there may be a real problem their opponent is trying to highlight or come to grips with. I think, for instance, that the majority of people would view the argument that we live under a financial oligarchy as a crackpot conspiracy theory. I would ask these people what they think the what ~ 2000 industry lobbyists are being paid to do in Washington if not influence (to the point of controlling, I think) economic policy in the US. But the point is, the charge of being a conspiracy theorist simply gives one the license to stop listening well before any argument - like this one - need be considered.

Of course it can also operate as a simple expression of exasperation, a verbal throwing up of hands. The meme of the angry, impotent, self-alienating extremist does have some truth to it. As the Onion puts it, "Stereotypes are great time savers."

[GRG55]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

I am very much against the current war and how it is being handled. I think its lives and money down the drain. That said, I still think we need to take care of our service people. Benefits like the GI bill are not unlike the way a corporation will often pay out severance packages, even when they don't have to. They want to be able to attract good people in the future. A reputation for screwing over employees can hurt future recruiting efforts. I sincerely hope the government is not screwing over our service people like with your friend's experience.

Even in the USA, military service personnel do far more than go off to foreign lands to fight a war...just look at what happens, for example, whenever there's a serious natural disaster in the USA; the military folks that come in to help usually seem to do a lot more good than FEMA appears to.

An arrangement that trades some national service for an improved education for some people that might otherwise not be able to access that, seems like a reasonable trade.

Maybe jtabeb has some thoughts?

[jtabeb]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Even in the USA, military service personnel do far more than go off to foreign lands to fight a war...just look at what happens, for example, whenever there's a serious natural disaster in the USA; the military folks that come in to help usually seem to do a lot more good than FEMA appears to.

An arrangement that trades some national service for an improved education for some people that might otherwise not be able to access that, seems like a reasonable trade.

Maybe jtabeb has some thoughts?

I think that what is going to HAVE to be done is that the government is going to have provide a set level of income for every one, say at $1000-$2000 per person per month.

Then then will have to ELIMINATE all benefits (you will have to pay market prices for you food, housing and health care out the proceeds from you 'stipend').

And income tax is kind of meaningless in this environment so you would have to replace it with a consumption tax, and likely a property tax. (you have to keep used goods UNTAXED because you want to minimize new production to essential items, or new capabilities, only to what is required, esp. in a constrained resource environment)

You would all observe correctly that this is only a survival level (nice survival level mind you, compared with most of the other 6.6 billion people in the world).

So we finally arrive at your actual question (sorry GRG for the quick detour, but had to set the scene as they say).


So HOW do you get nice stuff (beyond survival level?)

Work.

I envision a system where work accrues additional pay for the period worked BUT also additional benefits. So that if I work for say 10 years I get my stipend, my pay, and say 10 years worth of retirement credits. This could easily be tied in to EDUCATIONAL benefits as well. (Work 5 years in the Peace Corps/Military/Teaching and get you college paid for by the Gov, as an example.


The above programs are where (I Think) must go, and indeed, will be REQUIRED to go to, in order "to preserve the domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare".


Just my 1 Oz AU, STS.

P.S. Forgot to add that YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY private credit in the above system (inflation would runaway). But if you had a 100% reserve requirement , where the government controlled the money supply directly through currency emission, I think you would be just fine.

P.P.S. It would be EVEN better if you could add to the credibility of the system by providing a saving option in say gold or silver, that would trade at MARKET prices, have a 15% tax rate, and bought and sold only directly to and from the government. That way, people with excess funds would have a time tested, and secure, non-inflationary savings vehicle.


Bottom line, we need a non inflating (linear is fine, exponential, or in our case, superexponential, is bad) monetary system and an economy to go with it in a resource constrained environment. The quicker we get there, the better it is for the whole world.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

I agree that there is a kind of moral hazard to believing in conspiracy theories as a trader or investor. It gives you license to evade full responsibility for your actions and is thus out of court purely based on psychological "hygiene" so

The same moral hazard exists for those who follow the herd, or those who follow the official pronouncements, or those who use any other excuse to evade taking moral responsibility for their own actions. I don't see anything in this objection that is unique to conspiracy theories.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

On the flip side I think there's also a psychological payoff to labeling something a conspiracy theory. I'm not thinking of anyone here but I certainly see it used in mainstream media this way. To my mind, it works as a way of enlisting the authority of MadCow's herd to silence criticism.

... As the Onion puts it, "Stereotypes are great time savers."

I agree. Well said.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

I think that what is going to HAVE to be done is that the government is going to have provide a set level of income for every one, say at $1000-$2000 per person per month.

Then then will have to ELIMINATE all benefits (you will have to pay market prices for you food, housing and health care out the proceeds from you 'stipend').

And income tax is kind of meaningless in this environment so you would have to replace it with a consumption tax,

jtabeb - meet fair tax; fair tax - meet jtabeb. In particular, that $1000/month sounds like an enhanced variant of the fair tax prebate.

Well, to be fair, I think jtabeb takes the idea further than the fair tax proposal does, in ways that seem quite interesting to me (though which will open the proposal up to the criticism that it's "socialism".)

[jtabeb]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

jtabeb - meet fair tax; fair tax - meet jtabeb. In particular, that $1000/month sounds like an enhanced variant of the fair tax prebate.

Well, to be fair, I think jtabeb takes the idea further than the fair tax proposal does, in ways that seem quite interesting to me (though which will open the proposal up to the criticism that it's "socialism".)

I don't care about labels, just effective policies.

(And I think you lean that way yourself, cow:rolleyes


Problem with the fair tax, is that it provides no way to address entitlements (the unfunded liability type) nor how to provide income to the structurally unemployed (That's a big problem).

Reform is GOING to have to be comprehensive, otherwise, it simply is going to fail.

You have to address:

Environmental constraints
Geopolitical constraints
Energy SecurityPolicy
National Security
International Security
The Structure of the Economy
Unemployment
Housing
Healthcare
Entitlement Spending
Governmental Spending
Budget Deficits
World Economy
Currency Exchange rate stability
Political Process


And a few other points (Just A FEW)

Point IS though, that is not insurmountable.

The POLICY SIDE is EASY, synergy is relatively straightforward to achieve as long as you are not constrained by dogma or ideology, it's the politics that are a bitch!

(You can take 1 Oz AU to the bank on that point!)

Cow, Give me ANY problem in the world, and I can fix it (from a policy perspective). I'll leave the political implementation to YOU, Deal?

(In Fact, I'll double-dog-dare you to find me a world problem that is "intractable", policy CAN be Simple yet Elegantly Effective! Politics on the other hand... No so Much, UNLESS you have publicly funded elections, in which case he political problem goes away. See, told ya, solutions for everything and the chicks for free!)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

it's the politics that are a bitch!

That's one leg up that the fair tax has; it has more political support than either of us will likely ever garner for anything.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Reform is GOING to have to be comprehensive, otherwise, it simply is going to fail.

No. Absolutely not.

That would destroy the fabric of society. A robust fabric has redundancy. Neighbors, friends, relatives, family, co-workers, fellow church goers, etc watch out for each other in various ways. Providing every person in America (I doubt we'd restrict this to citizens) with the means of independent sustenance breaks the essential need for those myriad other bonds, destroying society.

We've already done this on smaller scales, such as with urban blacks. Prior to LBJ's Great Society, they had one of the higher percentages of intact families. Now their families are shattered.

Good grief, jtabeb. When are we ever going to realize that slipping from some sort of "universal problem conception" to a specific universal solution that "we" (a specific "universal" agent, aka our U.S. federal government) should do is a total disaster.