Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

I JUST KNEW you were going to reply to this.

Thanks! (Your ability to employ syntactic destruction is only rivaled by that possessed by Fmr. Fed Chair Alan Greenspan)

Specifically, I like how you state that everyone already "knows this stuff" while simultaneously supplying the innuendo that acknowledging such tactics exist and are used is the domain of the paranoid. So could you please explain which it is? (Accepted fact & paranoid delusion seem to be mutually exclusive, don't you think?)

BTW, Cindy, how is it paranoid when the purported "recommendations" come from none other than the sitting cabinet member of the Obama administration who authored the attached paper?

I am confused Cindy. Are you claiming that the author is not a member of the Obama Administration? Are you claiming that the attached University of Chicago was not authored by the individual referred to above? Are you claiming that the paper is not genuine? Could you please be SPECIFIC in your criticism so that the readership here at Itulip could have a chance to vet your concerns?

Your repeated Ad Hominem counter arguments don't add to the constructive discourse, and I am sure that that is NOT YOUR INTENT.

Could you please explain your logic? (Because the lack there-of in your response speaks volumes).

Here is what some of the bloggers said in reponse to the article and link you posted.

1. "Except for the Orwellian NewSpeak, nothing really new here, is there?"

2. "Yes, what Mariann says, as usual. Nothing really new here. Same old Same old. Except maybe now with zanier fonts and better music."

3. "Nothing new,for sure"

4. "Of course, if any of you'd like to actually READ the whole article being discussed before decrying it in your comments, you'll realize that it's being grossly mischaracterized here.
"what Sunstein is proposing is government infiltration of groups opposing prevailing policy"??!? No. Nowhere in the paper does it say anything about groups opposing prevailing policy; this is simply a paranoid extrapolation you've made yourself.

Seriously people, go read it. Estrin is trying to portray it as some kind of call-to-arms for the unleashing of spies onto the internet, when it's actually a fairly sedate examination of various responses to both extremist thought groups and conspiracy theorists.



Also, a little side point, it's an academic journal, okay? When they use phrases like "cognitive diversity" they're citing specific technical terminology within their field - so when you stick your own little bunny ears around it as if to suggest that it's an invented euphemism for something more sinister, that's just weak. (That goes too for the guy at the top who called it 'Newspeak')"


So, Jteb do the bloggers help you understand? Read #4 carefully

Cindy

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

I'm not sure which, But I would ask Cindy. She might know.

Ash

My guess is JTEB is talking about it all and a lot more as well

Cindy

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Title says it all, I'm afraid.

http://tinyurl.com/y9qfz4d


(but just in case, here is an extract)

[W]e suggest a distinctive tactic for breaking up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories: cognitive infiltration of extremist groups, whereby government agents or their allies (acting either virtually or in real space, and either openly or anonymously) will undermine the crippled epistemology of believers by planting doubts about the theories and stylized facts that circulate within such groups, thereby introducing beneficial cognitive diversity. (Page 219.)




Here is the paper, if you care to read it and vomit.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1084585

Its kind of humorous to know that most fortune 500 companies have used cognitive infiltration techniques for 50 years during the Saturday morning cartoons to get us to buy frosted flakes and Ninja turtles. Every time I start my computer there it is some cognitive infiltration. In fact when I read a post from JTeb it seems to me to be cognitive infiltration.

[jtabeb]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Her is a question you really need some outside help with: Why would anyone as intelligent as you cash out their 401 k etc and pay the taxes and buy gold and why would they end a career as major in the military doing the good work you are doing for us and our country.



Cindy

Well I can see that this conversation is not going anywhere:p.

But before I bid you good-day, (And I mean that with no ill intent or disrespect, just ask Metalman, he will verify that YOU WOULD KNOW if I intended either) I think I will answer the above question as I think it is legitimate and as such deserves an answer.

I think that our ability to sustain our economic and military (and possibly our political) systems is very limited against the backdrop of the present economic/geopolitical and limited natural resource environment that we face. Our overt/covert operations are very visible to the marginally intelligent due to the free flow of information (and disinformation) that the internet allows. (Not good, as Brzezinski would say).

So as a person who has to rely on their critical thinking skills to teach what works (and to also keep me and my students ALIVE in the process), I have to constantly analyze what is and what is not (the definition of Situational Awareness, no).

"Situation awareness (SA) involves being aware of what is happening around you to understand how information, events, and your own actions will impact your goals and objectives, both now and in the near future".

When I use those skills to analyze the policy choices (as their potential for success or failure) I am not left with "A Warm Fuzzy" as they say.

I love this country very much. It has provided me with opportunities only limited by my own capabilities (or lack there of) and it is a great honor to serve and protect the people of this country, and it is a duty that I take GRAVELY. That is to say when I swore an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States" (which I have affirmed with each accession of rank" I approach it not only from the perspective of a military officer but that of a citizen as well. Civic duty, is a natural requirement of a functioning democracy as you well know. When the process of civic discourse is circumvented through the use of domestically disseminated unqualified information, society breaks down. The population becomes unable/unqualified to meaningfully add to the governance and policy process that the country must undergo to find it's way to workable, sustainable solutions.

To directly answer your question r.e. IRAs/401Ks, I think I have made it clear why I did that. But the point you raise about advocacy stems from my desire to not see my fellow citizens harmed financially when it is well within there means and ability to protect themselves and their financial interests. What kind of officer/citizen am I if I do not seek to protect the people who put their trust in me to do so?

To answer you last question, frankly, I'm just tired of the bullshit, to put it plainly. And I think that I have a meaningful contribution that I can make in the alt. energy field. And with the gracious opportunities provided by the new GI Bill, I hope to put that opportunity to good use (and hopefully served the people of this country and our military through the development of a sustainable source of liquid transport fuel that MORE than meets our current usage needs).

"Give me 1000 acres, and I'll give you a domestic Saudi Arabia" is the idea.

My underlying desire (more than anything) is that we the people of this country choose to do the RIGHT things for the RIGHT reasons. I only try to ensure that the discussion we have on how to get there is informed, vs ill-informed.

I hope that adequately answers your questions.

And with that,

I Bid you good day.

[rabot10]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Jteb

Yes I read every word of it more than once.

Cindy

Did U understand it?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

And with the gracious opportunities provided by the new GI Bill,

Yeah - the GI Bill is a good deal. That's how I paid for my computer science degree, which served me well for several decades.

The other benefit that served me well was the dental benefits. You get one visit to the dentist after you get out, and whatever that dentist says you need is paid for. I got a mouthful of excellent quality caps that would probably cost me $50,000 these days. I still have most of them, several decades later. Hopefully your teeth are in better shape now than mine were at that time and this benefit is of no interest to you.

I've just started reading that "Conspiracy Theories" paper now. The arrogance of the opening page strikes me as outrageous. But I come at this from a very different place than the good Cindy above. I'm one of those conspiracy nutters that the paper is worried need to be protected from their own foolishness.

Aside to Cindy: usually when I see someone on a web forum recommend in good faith that someone else seek professional help, I tend to agree with that recommendation. I do not agree in this case however. I find jtabeb to be of sound mind and healthy psyche (as if a retired computer nerd has any business making such judgments based just on web posts .) I suspect it is simply a matter that your frame of reference is so far from jtabeb's that you are not able to imagine wherefrom he speaks.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Well, I've gotten up to page six of that paper so far. I don't know how much further I will be able to make it.

I think I need to go back in history and review Alice in Wonderland, the looking glass and the rabbit hole and such, so remind myself of what was happening at that time and what became of it.

I deeply hope that the authors of this paper are laughing in their beer after hours at the outrageous cynical con job in this paper. However so far I can find no evidence of such a possibility. They seem quite sincere. Sad.

[ER59]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

When I encounter someone posting as you do I try to understand their philosophy and somethimes theology and try to discern if there is an ongoing pattern of thought.

Interesting article to consider: "Why do so many terrorists have engineering degrees?"

"What else might account for the radical, violent politics of so many former engineering students? Is there some set of traits that makes engineers more likely to participate in acts of terrorism? According to the original paper, engineers described themselves as "strongly conservative" and "deeply religious" more often than professors in any other field.

Gambetta and Hertog write about a particular mind-set among engineers that disdains ambiguity and compromise. They might be more passionate about bringing order to their society and see the rigid, religious law put forward in radical Islam as the best way of achieving those goals."

http://www.slate.com/id/2240157/

I would speculate that engineers are more susceptible to conspiracy theories but it is mainly based on the article above and my own experience.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Title says it all, I'm afraid.

http://tinyurl.com/y9qfz4d

Aha - I had not read through that tinyurl link until now. It presents a more coherent summary of my reactions than I was able to above.

See also the Wikipedia articles for paper's first author Cass Sunstein and his spouse Samantha Power. Sunstein is currently Administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs at the Office of Management and Budget. Power is a member of Obama's National Security Council. These people are part of Obama's brain trust. I do not find this reassuring.

Sunstein is the author of many papers and books and widely cited. His most recent book is The Second Bill of Rights: FDR's Unfinished Revolution - and Why We Need it More Than Ever:

The problem with the American welfare state, according to Cass Sunstein, is that it is too small. In this book the widely respected University of Chicago law professor argues that the federal government should guarantee Americans a broad range of "economic rights." Sunstein organizes the book around the story of Franklin Roosevelt's 1944 State of the Union address. In that speech FDR argued for a "Second Bill of Rights" that would, he claimed, guarantee economic and social security to everyone.

The second author of this Conspiracy Theory paper, Adrian Vermeule, is less prolific. In his book Judging Under Uncertainty: An Institutional Theory of Legal Interpretation he wrote that Courts should not be trusted to comment on the constitutionality of laws, deferring to the legislature and administration instead:

Vermeule shows that any approach to legal interpretation rests on institutional and empirical premises about the capacities of judges and the systemic effects of their rulings. ... In view of their limited information and competence, judges should adopt a restrictive, unambitious set of tools for interpreting statutory and constitutional provisions, deferring to administrative agencies where statutes are unclear and deferring to legislatures where constitutional language is unclear or states general aspirations.

Adrian Vermeule has also spoken and written on the risks of Tyrannophobia: "An exaggerated or irrational fear or hatred of tyrants." See for example his paper with Eric Posner Tyrannophobia:

Abstract:
Tyrannophobia - the fear of dictatorship - is a dominant theme in American political discourse. Yet dictatorship has never existed in the United States or even been likely.The hypothesis that tyrannophobia itself has prevented dictatorship from occurring is implausible; better evidence exists for alternative hypotheses. We conclude that tyrannophobia is an irrational political attitude that has interfered with, and continues to interfere with, needed institutional reform.

Good grief. The informed doubts of citizens as to the actual causes of events are conspiracy confusions caused by insufficient free speech (where free speech is the adequate presence of government "truth"), the courts are not proper forums to determine the constitutionality of acts of the legislature and administration, and a fear of tyranny is an irrational attitude that interferes with needed reform.

The intellectual justifications for propaganda and tyranny are stunning in their elaborate seriousness.

So, jtabeb, what form of alternative energy do you recommend persuing (fascist pig farts?)

[jtabeb]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

So, jtabeb, what form of alternative energy do you recommend persuing (fascist pig farts?)

I can't tell you my solution, (yet).

But I will freely give some humble guidance to all itulipers, seeking to avail themselves of vehicular transportation that has a long LONG sustainable future ahead of it.

(Buy a diesel)

I'm getting this one, and BTW, it IS MADE in the USA! (Alabama, specifically) So no gripes about me buying a "foreign" car.

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/#/vehi...L&vmf=GL350BTC

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

That MB GL350 looks like a fine set of wheels. Now if only if it was a straight six instead of a V-6, and if I had put all my money in gold a decade ago instead of squandering it ...

[SamAdams]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Its kind of humorous to know that most fortune 500 companies have used cognitive infiltration techniques for 50 years during the Saturday morning cartoons to get us to buy frosted flakes and Ninja turtles. Every time I start my computer there it is some cognitive infiltration. In fact when I read a post from JTeb it seems to me to be cognitive infiltration.

We can laugh when its a corporation because we can refuse to buy their products and tell our friends to do likewise. When the corporation is the federal government, refuses to obey its own laws, and starts picking out enemies among its own citizens, it has descended into tyranny.

All that being said this is not new that the feds are trying to stir some sh*t up?! There are many former/current CIA/US intelligence officers who have been bombing other countries, our own country, starting hate groups etc. If you think I'm crazy I will cite some sources for you to read.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Title says it all, I'm afraid.

http://tinyurl.com/y9qfz4d


(but just in case, here is an extract)

[W]e suggest a distinctive tactic for breaking up the hard core of extremists who supply conspiracy theories: cognitive infiltration of extremist groups, whereby government agents or their allies (acting either virtually or in real space, and either openly or anonymously) will undermine the crippled epistemology of believers by planting doubts about the theories and stylized facts that circulate within such groups, thereby introducing beneficial cognitive diversity. (Page 219.)

Here is the paper, if you care to read it and vomit.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1084585

This is actually a perfect way to see how the egalitarian-democratic mindset is fatally flawed, thus allowing them to be easily crushed.

The passionless, soulless academics at Harvard truly have no conception of the world that awaits them. Their selective bias favors ethnic groups with a long tradition of textual memorization, but they fail to grasp that staring at a book all day has done little for the modern world besides fill our governments with ineffectual bureaucrats.

No, the entirety of humanity is not so easily manipulated. The spirit of some can break forth with tremendous fury when pressed. Sunstein will see this first hand in short order.

I'm actually thrilled this paper has been published. When a new regime is implemented, perhaps the first group to be deported should be graduates and faculties of Harvard. I don't think there has ever been such a den of iniquity in the history of mankind. To be so bold with such a paper! Hubris, pure hubris.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

We can laugh when its a corporation because we can refuse to buy their products and tell our friends to do likewise. When the corporation is the federal government, refuses to obey its own laws, and starts picking out enemies among its own citizens, it has descended into tyranny.

All that being said this is not new that the feds are trying to stir some sh*t up?! There are many former/current CIA/US intelligence officers who have been bombing other countries, our own country, starting hate groups etc. If you think I'm crazy I will cite some sources for you to read.

I knew you'd love that one.

[DToM67]

Re: Got Fascism? : Obama Advisor Promotes 'Cognitive Infiltration'

Am reminded of the OSS or recent questionable security/intelligence programs like InfraGard

Anyone here have an idea what % of the populace is employed by the "intelligence industry" these days?

Cindy: Zeitgeist This is what I believe to be ministry. There, I've done my 'duty'. The rest is for you to decide.